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YL2 Discussion - Character permissions? (Patreon)

Published:
2020-02-19 21:52:26
Imported:
2020-09

Content

Hi all!

Hope you're doing great!

As you may know, we're in the process of implementing the new cloud for YL2. This new cloud will allow you to share and browse characters, very much similar to how interaction browsing works in Yiffalicious 1.

We know how much time and effort you spend on the characters you create, and in knowing this, we've hit somewhat of a dilemma -

How do we prevent theft among users, while still being a platform where people learn?

The vision with YL2 cloud has been to be a source of learning, where people can download existing characters to learn and be inspired when making their own. However, if there are no restrictions, people could essentially just download a character from the cloud and then upload it as their own, with minimal or no tweaking.

I've so far thought about two ways this could be prevented:

1. Offer users the choice to set permissions on the uploaded character. The ones I had in mind are "Clone" (permission to copy the character and do with it whatever they like), "Study" (permission to download the character, but modifying it will not be possible) and finally "Locked" (only permission to pose the character/use in interactions).

This option kind of goes against the open nature of Yiffalicious, but I thought I'd mention this idea anyway.

2. The second idea is to clearly state that plagiarism is strictly forbidden, and this rule would be enforced through volunteer moderators. Breaking this rule would result in some form of penalty or even ban. However, defining where exactly one character ends and another begins can be quite difficult. There's also a risk the platform becomes toxic with a never ending stream of accusations. And even with such rules, I bet there are some who would still prefer if their characters were not possible clone.

Neither one of these solutions feel ideal, and that's why we're asking you.

What do you think?

How would you like the cloud to work?

Do you have an option no. 3? (An idea of your own.)

------

Thanks.

All the best.

Comments

Drak Drake

I can see how people might be sensitive about it, but personally I don't care. Drak is pretty simplistic and featureless by design, so I would actually feel bad copyrighting what is basically the minimal form of a dragon. Stupid thing won't let me newline. Anyway, on a more universal note, if you did NOT implement such a feature, it would be no different than the state of furry culture now. There's nothing stopping anyone from taking someone's pic and declaring it as themselves. It's basically up to the artist to police their own character. Maybe that's not ideal, but at the very least you wouldn't be affecting the state of furry copyright theft by not implementing any protections.

Anonymous

I feel option 1 works the best, moderation and all that can indeed lead to "but they could" cases and hostility. If the creators can set their own preference nothing of the sorts can happen. And even if only half allow it fully that's still half more than just not allowing it and moderating it.

BlackTH

I'm okay with the first option. I don't really mean to fiddle or learn with somebody else's character after downloading them, as long as I can pose/create interactions freely with them after it's shared. People could then post self-made tutorials for others to read/watch and learn tricks or how to achieve a similar look for their character.

Fox of Ages

Yiffalicious is certainly open, but I‘m inclined to believe few people will run into a scenario where they feel frustrated about not being able to modify an existing character. Having the opportunity of using a character they enjoy in an animation is oftentimes more than enough for most people, especially when there’s an entire cloud of characters to peruse.

Anonymous

First option sounds more viable and less "abusable", but maybe add a simple way of contacting the original creator of some "locked" or " study" models, in case someone really wanted to get more in-depth look at someone else's creations?

Iceplotion

I agree with the first option. There will always be ways to clone characters or copy styles. But this option gives the creator control over blatant plagiarism. And since creators are the lifeblood of keeping something relevant, I see no problem giving them these tools to feel more comfortable publishing their designs. And it even extends to users who commissioned a model and want to share it but still keep it as theirs. On the other hand moderators requires a lot of upkeep and leads to the "how different is enough" and considering you could just make a new account after a ban, it'll do little good to those who are set on copying a model.

Strayed

There could potentially be some sort of character history linked to characters that have been modified, like a thumbnail and link attached to the original character if you download one that was modified from another.

Anonymous

Ah, the donut steel question. Personally I'd prefer no limitations, but most of us know how bizzarely anal furries can get about their OCs. Second option seems superior on paper but giving people mod privileges inevitably leads to abuse/drama, and there will be people who wont upload their stuff because they don't like the idea of their characters being edited. So I think the first option would be the best; if people can set the usage permissions themselves, that'd definitely get us the most content on the cloud.

Anonymous

Option one gets my vote as well. Moderation's a tricky beast even at the best of times, and more options on the creators' end is always a plus. Most creators probably aren't going to be needlessly prima donna about it, hopefully, so it shouldn't impact the openness of YL2 too badly. I'm guessing you're planning on not making it a possibility to download characters from interactions directly, though, given that I see no option for characters that the creator wishes to only use in their own interactions and that seems like an obvious option as well. EDIT: unless that's what locked essentially means; now that I've read through the description again, it seems like it does. Another idea worth considering would be having cloned characters always feature a link back to the original and their creator, no matter how extreme a makeover the cloner gives them. Now, obviously, this could be countered by simply making a "clone" from scratch, but that's a considerable bit of work so it should deter your usual suspects quite nicely.

Anonymous

Would it be possible to keep metadata on the origins? Like, if user Y downloads a character made by user X, the model will always be listed as "based on a character by user X"?

Mobius Scarf

Option 1 sounds good to me.

yiffalicious
>>32680593

Yes, I forgot to mention that. A trail of meta data could be added, but a user with technical know-how could probably tamper with it anyway.

Anonymous

I like the first option, but personally, I'd also go for no moderation at all. After all, if you're putting your character in the cloud, you're doing it to share your character with everyone else. Why put your character for everyone to use, but then lock them out from doing anything with it? And even if someone does copy your character, so what? Your character is still out there, and it's still yours. One question though, how will custom characters work when publishing an interaction? Will those characters be 'included', or will they have to be uploaded to the cloud prior to sharing the interaction?

addy

From a sysadmin standpoint, make it permission based, and everyone's lives will be easier. Let the servers who dont dont complain, do what you tell them to, work 24/7/365, and probably most importantly - don't expect anything in return handle what could be considered a menial task. If sharing characters is the focus and it's not too much work to implement, allow the owner of the character to dowload a "character file" that they can then share for others to then import. If plagiarism was ever a concern of theirs, well the onus is on them and your hands are clean.

yiffalicious
>>32680884

Characters will be referenced. The only way to use a character in an interaction will be if it is already uploaded.

BadOmen113

First option sounds best, but with a trail of meta data, at least to mark who uploaded what character to the cloud. Specifically user X uploaded this character. User Y uploaded this character cloned from user X. Of course keeping track of meta data could become complicated if a line of people are cloning eachothers characters in succession. User Z uploaded this character cloned from user Y's clone of user X's character. Then there are those who could modify the data of the original uploader. Perhaps the characters thumbnails could include a watermark of the original uploaders username?

Bixxx

I would say absolutely option 1. It gives the ability to do complex permissions (Private / Viewable / Saveable / Editable), or simple permissions (if uploaded to cloud and not saved locally, is it downloadable (which would be editable/viewable/saveable), or not (which would me it can be viewed, but the character can't be saved or tweaked). It's also a system that can would seemingly be easy to integrate into interactions down the road. Option 2 seems like it's way to high of a potential for drama for both moderators, and creators as people will definitely plagiarize, and it seems silly to think that you might be able to get banned from a program that's geared more as a creationist tool, and less of a game. My Option 3: - Have the option to save all characters, and interactions, locally and not share it to the cloud at all (Make this default, unless you plan on setting up an autosaving/recovery feature in the future) - Since stored locally, have an option to where you turn on cloud saving (if auto saving) or save to cloud (with no auto saving) - If you select save to cloud, you should have the following options (check on/off style buttons) Character: - Viewable (Is this character able to be seen by other users) - Shareable (Able another user other than the creator able to download, or not) - Editable (This character is able to be edited) Interactions: - Visible (All interactions with this character are able to be seen by other users, or not) - Creatable (Able to create new interactions with this character) - Downloadable (All Interactions involving this characters are able to be saved, or not) - Editable (All interactions involving this character are able to be saved or not) Then, you can do something similar for interactions individually where permissions override if you set them specifically on a certain interaction. That way, users can make certain scenes private, or unable to be edited via character, or, interaction itself. Another interesting idea you can rope into it is Character Lock Set a tag system up to where certain characters, can be the only ones used in a new interaction, with the character you have selected. Would be a fun concept which would allow other people to create new interactions, but only with certain character combos you want to see.

Anonymous

While i also agree option 1 is better, this sounds very much like a similar problem the VR Chat community is facing. While VR Chat uses kind-of an option 1 (you can disable/enable avatar cloning), they also semi-frequently have problems with the more well know creators/streamers having their characters stolen or used without consent. Going into moderation would means addressing the thorny issue of "how much transformation makes it original", and no matter what no one is going to be happy with what you decide. Better to not try and bother with that so that, instead of people getting angry with you for not moderating correctly, they get angry at the ripper for their action. Permissions based is probably the best solution imo.

Anonymous

Simplest is just to simply state any uploads are Creative Commons and the issue goes away.

SteelCrow13

Option 1 definitely sounds better. Option 2 sounds like nothing but arguing, drama and headaches.

Anonymous

Why not imbed a hash in the files that acts as a kind of watermark? The hash is applied when the model is exported to the cloud, so you can just assume all hashed files are reuploads.

RagnaBlade

Option 1 is the way to go. but implement some measures to punish those that would abuse and/or misuse that system.

Anonymous

To quote another commenter on a tech news site I read regularly, "trying to make bits uncopiable is like trying to make water not wet." Any solution that tries to impose strict permissions on what can be done with a model will inevitably be circumvented, e.g., by users downloading the model, then tweaking the files on the disk to restore the restricted permissions. Given that the models will be re-used, whether people like it or not, I think the best solution is to allow all submissions to be copied and re-mixed, but automatically retain a chain of attribution so that the original authors at least get some credit for their creations. For example, if Alice downloads a model that Bob created, makes changes, then re-uploads it, Alice's upload would say "by Alice, based on work by Bob." If Carol grabs Alice's upload and makes further changes, it would be "by Carol, based on work by Bob and Alice," etc. Because this makes the process entirely frictionless, there would be little incentive to deliberately sabotage the attribution chain, and would result in there being fewer people trying to circumvent the system (although rest assured, there will still be some bad actors).

Anonymous

Tbh I'd rather it just be open. Option 2 is terrible though, don't do that. The meta-data watermark tracking sounds like a pretty good idea though, to trace things back to their sources. Nobody gets left out!

Anonymous
>>32687142

Bonus idea: For uploads based on existing submissions, also retain a reference to the original submission(s) in the metadata. This would enable a "history browser" feature, which could let users visually see the evolution of that particular model as various users modified and re-uploaded it. This would drive two benefits: 1. Contribute to the stated mission of this "being a platform where people learn" 2. Derive an actually useful feature from the attribution chain, making it even less likely that people try to circumvent it

Steven Tethy

I really don't like either option. So what happens when you make all this fancy security and someone just copies the character by hand? People both secure and steal OC for often sentimental or petty reasons. Automated security will give users the expectation of security while ultimately failing to provide anything. It will only be a matter of time before someones "secure" character that they have some strong emotional attachment to is cloned by hand and published doing any number of sexual acts that will most certainly upset said creator. It will only be a matter of time until someones "Secure" fursona is copied by hand and used to troll and defame that person both here and through social media and third party websites. It will only be a matter of time until a prevalent creator with a large "Secure" library and following has their entire library mirrored with "DRM Free" copies, causing said creator to rage quit the platform. Meanwhile moderation can be prohibitively expensive. Volunteers might work if they are overseeing a community run by automated systems, but make no mistake. You're gonna need to hire some people if you want it to fall on humans for every case. Honestly? Just don't create that expectation of security at all and all these problems go away. It sounds strange or even wrong saying it but adding in copy protections for creators can only harm this project at this point. It's a laborious and unnecessary tangent that only offers to create a less open, more toxic community. Perhaps in some years when this project is closer to completion and commercial viability, more robust authoring support can be added. Until then it's a fools errand.

Anonymous

The 2nd idea feels wrong. There are so many similar fursonas and characters, that would be possibly recreated in YL2, it's not straight forward what would be plagarism and what wouldn't with some of the designs, as you already mentioned. Also I get the wish of some for their characters not being able to be cloned, but if someone wants to replicate anything they can percieve, they will be able to, no matter the drm or moderation. As some said before me, it feels like a fool's errand to do this kind of moderation.

Anonymous

My choice would be option #1 for sure. But if you have a way to define the original creator, some flag or tag no one else can modify later (Hackers not included but still make their life hard if you can) Then whoever re-post that character would do so but everyone would know who the original creator was. AND You also add #2 anyways so with the original creator being undeniable, it would reduce dispute to a minimum. So if someone just redid it by hand and did the same design, well he just wasted his time, or learned or whatever, but the tag will prove he did it from scratch and not from an already made character he downloaded from the cloud. We all know that a lot of people likes doing their own version of existing characters from comics and anime so their will be more than 1 Felicia-Cat being made.

Anonymous

Option one is totally OK.People can use the "OPEN" category to upload some common templates ，or some specific parts，like I create a mouth plug，then I upload the blank character with my plug creation as a open file ，so others could learn from it through modifing the open character ，just like those painting tutorials，they only show a part of the paintings. The “study” categoey is more like studying the style of the creator，like different painters have their unique style ，different character creator also have different style ，someone may copy someothers‘ style ，but they also paid a lot of time in that.

Anonymous
>>32690181

This actually makes sense. People might start making Patreon pages for making characters and some people could, either by hand or by modifying files, steal the character and upload it for free, thus leaking that Patreon creator's characters. Virt a Mate already has that exact situation with character/scene creators. At first I was thinking option 1 would be the better idea. But, if a Patreon creator has their characters not uploaded to the cloud and they share the character file on Patreon, what's stopping anyone from uploading it and saying it's theirs? The character file can just be uploaded since it's not on the cloud, even if the file needs to be modified. People who would do that would ruin the creator's patron numbers. Then, option 2 would probably be needed and moderation could cost money and the offenders would not be caught in time before many people download it. Another issue is that they could upload the character file on a hosting site and wouldn't need to upload it to the YL2 cloud. Stating that all characters are creative commons would probably be the best bet.

Anonymous

Option 1 is the best. But Maybe a kind of VIP function, Uploader becomes a VIP and can immediately use, other people's things. Everyone else has to wait 7 days. just think so ... (Sorry for my English) :)

Anonymous

i would suggest adopting the creative commons model. This would allow the uploader to specify the license they want their creation to be covered under, and make the use as restricted or unrestricted as they like. The nice thing is that all it's already a pretty comprehensive and well thought out license model that's been in use for years, all the legal work has already been done, and all you have to do for explanation is to link to creativecommons.org. Compliance can be built into the software, but since the license is legally binding even without software restrictions, you don't have to rely on the protections in the software to be the only barrier. Creators can choose one from an easy list of license types, going from "all free" to "requiring attribution" or "sharing allowed unmodified", or combinations thereof. There is a simple combination of two-letter-codes that are both human readable and easy to parse in software like "CC BY-NC-ND" that you can make part of the asset metadata. Go check it out, it's really good for environments that want to encourage sharing, but also respect creators rights.

Anonymous

Both of these options are bad. The first one causes unnecessary blocking off of characters in a system where the whole point is you upload and SHARE the creations, disallowing edits to user creations would be like Illusions character cards not being editable, it's pointless. The second option is just awful from a every aspect, encouraging a community of drama, as well as creating an unnecessary moderation team that would pull time away from work on YL2 or be just more of a general hassle to deal with. I say just let it be free range, if people don't want characters copied then don't upload them, or just upload a picture.

Hagrid

The more freedom for the community to be creative the better. The more limitations you add to character customization the less potential the game will have because simply less options are available. The reason the sims 4 still has such an active fan base 20 years after release is because there is such depth to customization and because its so easy to mod so anyone who has a good idea can add something to the game pretty easily. The easier it is to share and create unique characters the better your game will do. 100%! The sims 4 community library is a good example of a cloud based character sharing system that is still very active today.

Anonymous

I'm a big fan of Aaron Loessberg-Zahl's solution above. Just have some kind of credit chain in the model data, if possible. I think the ideal use case for YL2 would be download a character -> tweak character to your liking -> create scene. Having restrictions of some kind would cause friction and possibly create a culture that tries to shame possessive creators and the other system would put undue burden on volunteer moderators and possibly lead to drama. However if you've got a little disclaimer or something that tells creators anything they make can be used by anybody else on the platform then they'll know what they're getting into and people also like to be credited so that would also be nice.

Anonymous

I feel option one is a good system for now. Give people a way to decide for themselves the level of modification they want to allow on a character. A free for all approach seems like it would disencourage a lot of creators. Maybe make it so that study/locked characters have some sort of flag hidden in their data (or the cloud if possible) that disallows them from being shared over the cloud so even if hackers find a way to clone a character they'd have to share it outside of YL2. Possibly tie those characters to the original creators account in some way so duplicates can automatically be weeded out. On the topic of people just rebuilding other peoples characters, sure the possibility is there but that would require some effort on the copiers part which will probably deter a lot of hacks from the get go. I would personally feel a lot less fucked over if someone tries to copy my work by hand than if someone just literally takes all of my work, slides the big titty slider to the max and throws a horse dick on it and calls it a day.

Anonymous
>>32739155

Maybe there could be some way to have edits to study/locked characters possible but limit it to local personal use? That way people could customize characters to their liking but the original creator would still get the karma/likes/downloads?

Anonymous

Could you implement a way to simply track a cloned model? If so then why not just always have a clone tagged with the original creators submission automatically so it always displays where it was originally cloned from. Could also be a neat way to track somethings place of origin if it has been cloned and tweaked quite a bit.

Anonymous

All possible option have been defined by the Crew of YL2. All copyright belongs to YL2 Crew. All modification to modifications performed by 3rd parties to the work of 3rd parties belong with the tools coded and designed by the YL2 crews belong to YL2. Textures belong to the author of the texture. Contributors of textures/normal maps to the 'work' belong to the author. Let them sort it out.

Anonymous

While I can understand the desire to have option 1, I don't think it's feasible... At some point, someone's going to make a simple permissions bypass patch for the game. And then you're stuck with option 2 being the reality, regardless of intent. Sure, the YL2 devs could try to make it harder to bypass, encrypt things, implement some different model for permissions, etc, but that's a cat and mouse game that cannot be won and would waste tremendous time and effort that could be better spent improving the main experience. So I think a compromise approach would be best. Assume option 2 is the way things are actually going to be in practice, but have some features to appease users who'd otherwise be tempted to completely bypass permissions. Rather than permissions restricting how or if a character can be edited, why not just restrict uploading of derivatives? Any character that can be viewed can be edited, locally, but uploading that edit may be restricted according to permissions set for the original upload. I think that may be the best compromise. tl;dr: Let the people who just want to enjoy a published scene but with bigger/smaller tits have their fun, as long as the original uploader doesn't have to see it.