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Angel S05E08 - Destiny FULL REACTION (Patreon)

Published:
2019-06-27 20:10:16
Edited:
2019-07-27 01:46:47
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Comments

Anouar

Amazing episode, Angel and spike were both right in their own way, overall it was hard to see Angel struggling because his heart wasn't into it, i remember when i first watched this episode on tv, i felt really sad for both of these caracters how they struggled with their past, especially Angel because of his recent happenings with cordy and connor etc.

Anonymous

Absolutely amazing

seekingoutfriday

I don't think either them would like being human. Angel wouldn't get to be the Hero as human, and he gave that away once before for that reason. I also think he would revert back to living-in-an-alley-being-homeless just because he wouldn't know what to do with himself. Spike wouldn't like being human for the simple fact it reminds him of William, and he spent 100+ being Spike which is a violent reaction to William the Bloody Awful Poet. Overall, I think Spike would have the easier time being human. He's lived IN the world, even as a vampire, whereas Angel has really only been in the world for the past... five years in Los Angeles (on Buffy he just sort of hid in his mansion or hung out with Buffy at the cemetery, that's not living, and before then, again, eating rats in alleys). So Spike would have an easier transition imo. But he still wouldn't enjoy it. But maybe he could help the Slayers out in watcher fashion.

seekingoutfriday

Although, I don't think either vampire deserves it.

Jon Dub

Great episode. I always preferred Angel to Spike, but both of them deserve it, they are both bona fide heroes. Its too hard......I think Angel should edge it because he has fought for good longer and also he was given this mission by the powers for a reason.

Salix

Your reaction to the end reveal was perfection

Khanach

There goes my hope of catching up... On the Shanshu thing, I don't know, neither of them made a very good job of being human before, and I don't even know why they would want to be one; Spike probably only wants to be at some open air rock festivals by day or something

SweetSummit

Spike. He kinda laid it out himself. He fought for his soul. Angel had his forced upon him. Spike helped defeat Glory and you can argue chip/in love with Buffy but put Angelus in the similar situation he wouldn't side with Buffy. He'd be bringing about the end of the world like he was in Buffy season 2. Even with a chip. Angelus was a sadistic serial killer. Spike was a hunter. Going after the biggest hunts he could find. Plenty of humans with souls are either serial killers or hunters but our society doesn't condemn hunters as much as we do serial killers. It was a sport for Spike. It was an art for Angelus. Angel has far more atoning to do.

Collector of Stuff

You should rewatch it with the commentary. I believe ( if my memory is correct ) that they talk about why Spike had to win.

James MacDonald

I simultaneously love and hate this episode. I love it because it's brilliantly written and acted. I hate it because Angel lost. It's his show and the other souled vampire is presented as being stronger? That pissed me off back in 2004. I'd have been fine if they left it at "Spike wanted it more." Implying Spike is now stronger and a better fighter just rubbed me the wrong way.

Claire Eyles

Wesley wasn't in this episode, because Alexis Denisof was busy getting married to Alyson Hannigan.

seekingoutfriday
>>24180912

I mean, I can't compare soulless Spike vs soulless Angel, because neither are worthy of Shanshu and everything (with exceptions) Spike did that was good had selfish ulterior motives. Helping stop Glory was a good thing. But even running away, Spike mentions that he'd rather just take Dawn and Buffy out of there and sod everyone else. Is that helping stop Glory? Yes. In a way. But it's for Buffy, not for the world or sake of humanity. However, what I can compare is Spike and Angel with a soul. Spike has only had it for a little over a year now, but he's done more good than Angel did in his first year. In fact, Angel was murdering people by will in his first year. Spike wasn't (triggered isn't by will). Spike hasn't had any backsliding, (being an occasional douche isn't backsliding, that's a personality trait) whereas for every good Angel does there is something morally corrupt he has done as well.

Clara V.
>>24181171

Well, canonically it's pretty ambiguous why he won. If you believe that him wanting it more is the only reason then that's perfectly reasonable. Remember in season 5 Buffy lost to a simple vampire Riley later dispatched with ease. I know that rubbed people the wrong way, too, but I think that's missing the point. Buffy didn't lose to him because she was weaker and Riley didn't defeat him because he was stronger. Any fighter can ALWAYS lose even to a weaker opponent if they're not careful, cocky, have a hidden death-wish, whatever, that was literally the entire point of that episode. Like Spike said himself "it's not about the punch you didn't throw". So I think it's the same here, I never took this episode to mean that Spike is canonically stronger than Angel and I don't think that was the intended message either. It just worked out this way in the moment for any number of possible reasons. And that's exactly what bothers Angel at the end, he can't be sure what it means. Maybe it was destiny. Maybe Spike wanted it more. Maybe it was 100% luck. Noone knows. Plus from a narrative standpoint the shows is about Angel, that means it's about his struggles. Spike needed to win because that is the ultimate challenge to Angel's self-image and that is just 100 times more interesting to write about than a stalwart, destined hero who can always rest assured that he is the one and will get his reward eventually.

Claire Eyles

The song Spike is listening to in the car as well is 'Too Drunk to Fuck' by the Dead Kennedy's . Not surprisingly they didn't include the chorus in that scene.

Moon Logic

Angel should Shanshu. Spike twists the fact about fighting for his soul. He got his soul, because he had ruined his relationship to Buffy and getting the soul was a desperate shot at forgiveness. Also, Spike enjoys being a vampire, while Angel hates it. Spike only tries to get the cup, because Angel bullied him when they were evil.

Shandler

I'm definitely Team Angel, purely because the soul was hoisted on him as a punishment, but he eventually turned it into a purpose. There was a line earlier in the season that was almost played for comedy about how Angel spent nearly a hundred years going mad with guilt at what he did as Angelus, and Spike got over his wrongdoing after three weeks in a basement. I think that line reveals a lot, though. Angel really feels what he's done, and he truly wants to atone. Spike saw his soul as a prize to be won, to give him the opportunity to be a better man and prove himself to Buffy, but for Angel the soul is a constant burden, reminding him of all the evil he has done. He knows himself he can likely never make up for what he's done wrong but he still fights, regardless. I get the sense that Angel's soul (and, by extension, conscience) haunt him in a way that Spike will never be able to comprehend. For that reason, I think Angel is the more worthy.

Anouar

I'm thinking now about season 1 to this season 5, for me Angel deserves it way more, he saved so many people in those year's, despite those crazy circumstances, yes his soul was forced upon him, but i don't look at that, i only see his struggles for his redemption and that's what the show is really about, i also see the good things he has done with it, and sometimes the bad, but in the end he always does the right thing, and i know for sure if spike was in his place he couldn't handle the responsibilities, i think Angel is more mature in the saving thing, And he was chosen by the higher powers, spike also proved to be worthy of his soul, but i sometimes got the feeling he doesn't take it to seriously like Angel does, but that's my point of view.

Jason Veevaert

I personally think that both have the demon exorcised in different ways that are true to them (it is a bit crazy though I like the idea). Angel gets the Shanshu and Angelus is exorcised, completing his arc of fighting for light and for life, and Spike is saved by Buffy. I think that when Spike and Buffy meet up and hook up again (Team Spuffy :) they have a possibility of having a child down the line (according to vampire lore, male vampires can impregnate women, the child is called a Dhampier and actually pretty cool)! Since it possible for magical newborns to draw on energy from parents (regrettably Cordelia's pregnancy) the fetus, to empower itself, would suck out magical energy from both dad and mom. Spike's demon would be exorcised as the fetus absorbs it's power as well as buffy's slayer power (don't worry, not all of Buffy's abilities, since slayers are stronger). So Angel and Spike have both been cleansed of demons, Buffy would still have powers, and the new Dhampier-Slayer (I'm imagining it's a girl) would be a new hero and subject to prophecy!

Anonymous

Angel should. Spike has a balance with all the bad stuff he's done.He's kinda happy.

Bisibia

Angel. Always angel. He fights for good for the sake of it. Spike fought for good so a girl would like him. I think Angel only lost because in his mind, hed never feel worthy of becoming human just because he beat spike in a fight... he needs more than that. Just like how he gave up the gem of amara, and asked the oracles to turn back the day when he was human.

Anonymous

I always figured that Angel and Spike had picked up way too many enemies, so by becoming a comparatively feeble mortal human they would just be planting a target on themselves and those around them. It just doesn't seem like a good move.

Anonymous

While I think undeniably that Spike is the greater hero and character between the two, Angel is the one who needs it. Angel is the one motivated by a sense of redemption, where Spike is at relative peace with his past (you do occasionally see hints of him feeling bad about his past, but nowhere near the same as Angel). On top of that, Angel's curse is something that needs fixing.

Anonymous

Oh, Eve, what a terrible character you are. Her delivery just grates on me, she sounds like a child trying to say Joss Whedon style dialogue. In my opinion, of course, it's cool if you guys like her.

Anonymous

I think that both are great heroes in their own ways... we've seen what motivates them both. Spike worked hard to get his soul. And when the world needed him, he stepped up. Angel didn't ask for his soul but you can't deny how hard he's worked to endeavour to deserve it. Spike is motivated by love, and by wanting to be loved or worthy of love. Angel is motivated by redemption and honour. Both are worthy to be Shanshued. But in the end, I think it's like Zach Morrison said in the comment above, Angel needs it. His motivation is tied to the ultimate outcome. He needs to work towards something. Spike just is. He goes where and when he wants, does what he wants, acts if and when he wants. He doesn't need that end goal to get him to the next point. He just wafts about being Spike lol. Angel needs that direction. I think in the end the Shanshu should be Angels.

Chris (darkwater)
>>24180341

Best part of the whole episode. It was only like halfway through that I remembered that was coming though.

Anonymous

I think Angel is the one who deserves it. You mentioned that he became mortal before and he wanted it back cause he didn't want to feel helpless. He didn't want to be helpless not in a macho way but the fact that he couldn't protect Buffy or the Innocents that need saving. So he gave up a life of bliss with Buffy to protect those that can't protect themselves which is why to me Angel is selfless. To me Spike is like Damon from the vampire diaries. He is the bad boy that does what he wants. He is selfish and wants the girl. He got the soul not for himself to be a better person but for Buffy. Angel suffered from his soul and chooses to anyone for all his wrong. Spike lives with his soul and does what he wants. Saving the world is an afterthought his first thought is Buffy while Angel puts the world and Innocents first which makes him a true hero

FernWithy

I like this episode a lot. The network made them add Spike, but they really did interesting things with it. The rivalry between them, the way Spike blames Angel for making him a monster (reminds me of when Darla tried to get Angel to return the "favor" of siring her, and he pointed out that she made him a monster).

FernWithy

Okay. I think Angel should Shanshu, because he needs that prophecy, because it means more to him as a moral judgment on him (Spike just wants it so he can have a normal life; he's pretty clear on what he thinks the moral judgment on him should be). On the other hand, once it's done, I think Spike should go hunt up a Mohra demon from Season 1 and call it good. :D It occurred to me to wonder for the first time: Who really sent the amulet? As has been pointed out, it wouldn't make sense for the senior partners to try and kill Angel right after tempting him... but it would sure God make sense for Lindsay, and Lilah owed him for her promotion...

Anonymous

Angel needs Shanshu; while Spike deserves it. Spike is the better man; while Angel is utterly screwed. in the end... they both saved the world, both champions & loved by the same Slayer. but Spike doesn't actually NEED shanshu... while Angel does. but ya... Spike deserves it, much more than Angel; but it would benefit Angel more so.

Rey Gallogo
>>24187995

Angel's been fighting for redemption for years. Spike deserves it because he is your favorite?

Rey Gallogo
>>24184698

Why do say Spike is the greater hero when he was a good guy for approx 2 years, not counting when he was forced to be a good guy due to a chip. Angel's been fighting for the good guys for years longer.

Anonymous

I think One of the better scenes of the episode is when Angel scape from the cross and Spike just take it and used as his weapon. Spike did someyhing way more meaningfull that Angel, he decide to have a soul. And then whith his soul he embrace his cross and all the pain that came whit it. Angel did neither, his soul was imposed by an external force and souled he is more worry of his sufering and remorse to really move on, he is a very stuck character that is constantly going back to evil (with or whith out soul). Angel do not deserve the Shanshu yet when Spike is more than ready to do so. But hey William was a better man that Liam, soulles Spike was weeey better as a vampire that Angelus(in the human and empatic spectrum) of course Soul Spike is better that Angel, is juts logic.

Anonymous

Angel, if I have to choose, but they were both building themselves up during the fight. Angel avoided helping people for almost a century, then he saw Buffy and wanted to help her. Spike had Buffy, lost her and decided a soul was what he needed to get her back.

FernWithy
>>24189573

I do love the image of Spike just picking up the cross. Whedon plays fair with religious characters, and it seems that Spike is one--we see it first in the church scene in "Beneath You" ("It's what YOU wanted, isn't it?"), and then here again. Of course, Liam is a Catholic, and William is a Protestant, and I think that's a subtle but very present distinction in how they perceive absolution. Or, you know, maybe I'm reaching. But it's interesting to me the way they portray this character in regard to religious symbols, which in the show are usually just magic items of a generic sort. With Spike, they're actually used theologically, but not in a hit-you-over-the-head way... more in a way that just expresses the character.

The Answer

Angel, because he has suffered for years and helped people not just saving the world.. Angel cares about the people in the world

Shawn Skelton

Your reaction to Lindsey mirrored my own when I watched this for the first time!

Second_Strike

At this exact point in the series, I would say Angel "deserves" it more just based off of time investment and effective averting of apocalypses. Spike has had a soul for about 1 year at this point, and has prevented 1 apocalypse. I'll give him partial credit for Glory in S5 because he helped, but he had no soul and his motives were selfish. Angel has had a soul for 100+ years and began actively helping avert apocalypses from S1 of Buffy onward. Minus S2 where he gets points taken off for starting one (like Spike, had had no soul at this time) I think Angel wins the numbers game.

David Caine

They are both heroes in different ways, from different motivations. They were both monsters and at least Angel will always be haunted by his own evil. Spike would probably not need to make amends for his sins because he knows himself and what brought him to this point in his existence. He has nothing to prove to anybody, but he does want to take meaning away from Angel, he said so himself in this episode. Spike fought for his soul in the trials and then helped the Buffy gang. Angel has been fighting for redemption ever since he first met Buffy, he wanted not just to become worthy of her, like Spike, Angel wanted to become worthy of his humanity, his soul, but he could never make up for the evil he brought to the world. So Spike doesn't need the prophecy,, Angel can't atone for it, so neither should get it, it would be another kind of burden for them. However it happened, it was genius to bring Spike to this show as a foil and the drama

Sheriff Uchiha

Should be Spike. Whenever Angel loses his soul he goes pure evil. Spike did good without the soul and fought to get it. Also, why are Angel and Angelus two different personalities and Spike is one? Double standard... or Spike's existence proves that Angel isn't separate from Angelus. And as a whole Spike is clearly a better man when he has no soul and has coped with having a soul a lot better. Haven't seen Spike eating diner workers that have been shot or struggling to not eat innocents. (Angel went through decades avoiding people so he didn't munch them. Spike is fine after less than a year.)

Anonymous
>>24194826

Through your argument for Spike you have kinda proven that Angel deserves it more. Spike is a single balanced personality, it was the demon in Spike that changed and choice to get a soul. Angel still has to battle his demon and therefore deserves to be set free.

Daywalker

This is one of my...possibly my absolute favorite episode. That fight scene! Best fight scene I can remember seeing on television. Not because of the choreography but because of the dialogue while the fight is happening. In an interview, Lin Manual Miranda once said that the choreography of Hamilton was arranged based on the dialogue. In other words, each dance move was meant to emphasize and make more clear what the characters were saying in the moment. The same could be said of the fight between Angel and Spike. Both make strong and weak points. As for who deserves it more? I would like to return to this question after the last episode. Again, absolutely loved this episode and episodes like this make me wish the show had continued because season five is definitely my favorite. Also, side note - don't you think it's interesting that in the original airing of the Buffy finale, Buffy tells Spike she loves him but on the flashback on Angel, they leave that part out? I always wondered if that meant anything.

KiwiJello

Who should ShanShu? I think it should be Angel. Why? As a Libra, my life is about balance. In regards to Spike and Angel, it seems to me that Angel willfully works towards balancing his past acts, where as Spike tends to disregard his and only focus on the good things he has done. Spike doesn't seek atonement. Based on that alone, I think Angel should ShanShu as he would make a better human. I would worry that Spike would be robbing liquor stores and whatnot :)

Justin Brinkley

I always wanted Angel to be the one connected to the Shanshu Prophecy when I watched originally. I was a bigger (B)Angel fan watching in elementary/middle school, & the show ended when I got to HS. (I participated in the Save the Show petitions sending things to the WB offices, etc.) My age watching the show I related to Angel's more protective/puppy dog character on Buffy, but only once he went solo did I realize how one note BF Angel was. I learned a lot about how the world works watching Angel the series. Not everything is black & white. (Lilah has a killer quote along those lines in Habeas Corpses, 4.8) It was hard for me to get beyond the Spuffy scene in the end of S6, & I probably have some sort of bias from that, but I appreciate both as characters & don't really have issues w any Buffy/Angel characters, besides maybe Justine & Warren. Sorry for the tangents. My point is w many rewatches I've decided that I prefer not seeing either of them getting a Shanshu fulfillment. The way prophecies work in the Whedonverse is that they often become self-fulfilling, & are used to negatively affect the universe, or create doubt. Angel as a show is about redemption, & I'd like to think that neither character would ever wish to become human again. Spike having a soul is great, but he still did things for selfish reasons on Buffy. His arc on Angel is much more interesting to me. The end of S1.3 sums up how I think both Spike & Angel should feel about the choice of becoming human when Angel explains to Doyle why he won't keep the ring. Redemption doesn't have an end point. You don't get a reward for doing what's right. (Angel's Connor lecture in S4.1) I love the show & love watching. So excited to see the rest of the season unfold. Thank you.

Loves Bitca

As much as I like Spike much, much, much more than Angel, I think Angel should be Shan Shu'd. He really has earned it more. More importantly I don't feel that Spike wants to be human. He revels in the power of being a vampire, even if he's on the side of good. He would choose to still be a vampire, unless there were something at stake instead of just being human. For example if he would lose his soul if he remained a vampire, then he'd choose to give up the vampire powers. But not just to be human. There's nothing in that for him. It wouldn't be a reward for him. I think he really only wanted it, because he wanted to finally take something away from Angel as Angel had always taken things (shown here as Druscilla) away from him. Also want to say on your theory of Whedon number 7 episodes, I think that episode 8 was this seasons episode 7. What with Spike being turned corporeal again, the shan shu thing coming up again, the fight between them, the flashbacks and knowing/understanding more of their relationship and the final Lindsey reveal.

Ross Nolan

Souled Harmony for the win! :D

Anonymous
>>24192874

Spike helped stop an apocalypse in season 2, also -- an apocalypse that Angel was trying to cause.

Anonymous
>>24203647

How can you say that Angel works towards balancing his past acts when, half the time, he pretends it they weren't even his acts? Angel even gives his soulless self a different name, so he can pretend it was a different person. Spike at least never denies the fact that the thing he did without a soul were still his own actions.

Anonymous

I think who should shanshu depends on whether we're asking who deserves it or who needs it. I think Spike deserves it more (assuming he wants it – if he doesn’t, he definitely shouldn’t be forced to shanshu!), but I think Angel needs it more. I think Spike was a better person when he was human than Angel was. Neither of them was hero material back then, but at least Spike wasn’t a drunk getting into bar fights all the time. Then there’s the fact that Spike fought to get his soul, whereas Angel had his forced upon him – Spike’s soul was a reward; Angel’s soul was a curse. I just think Spike is more capable of staying on the path of redemption without any promise of a reward, whereas Angel is more likely to have another setback without that promise. So, because of all that, I think Spike deserves it more but Angel needs it more. This is all assuming either of them really wants it. I think both of them are more interested in the idea that they have some great and glorious destiny preordained for them than they are in the idea of becoming human again. Hell, Angel became human once and gave it back, so who’s to say he wouldn’t feel the same way if the offer was ever made to him again?

Anonymous

I was gonna say Angel though and then I switched to Spike after that intense badass fight scene and then he drank the fake cup and I switched to Angel again. hmm come to think of it, I still can't decide on either on them. Now that you mentioned it... Harm-o-ny??? 😏 She's pretty harmless so far and I striving to be a good vampire right now, drinking animal blood like Spike before he was re-ensouled so... she might deserve something better? She's been a decent secretary so far despite being so dim-witted 😂 Oh and I love your reaction to Lindsay at the end there. wow. Yeah I kind of missed Lindsay now that Lilah's gone. It will be more interesting this time.

Anonymous

Angel, because the way he talk to Spike and then Spike wasn't really caring.

Anonymous

I always rooted for spike in this episode. I agree, he fought for his soul, while angels was a curse to him.

KT

Angel should get it, for the reasons people have stated above, but also because of the distinction between Angel and Spike's soul. Spike doesn't have anything to gain from becoming human. For him, the only difference between being an ensouled vampire and a human is that different things can kill him. There isn't an emotional need that would be fulfilled by shanshuing. Angel, on the other hand, is cursed. He can't ever be happy as a vampire. Even though perfect happiness is rare, the risk makes it so he has to hold himself back from imperfect happiness as well. Becoming human represents forgiveness for Angel, and being a vampire will always be a punishment, even if he doesn't hate every minute of it. It's easier for Spike to move on from his past because he's not constantly at risk of becoming a monster again. Spike can be in love. I think it's less about deserving, and more about mercy.

Ron Fehr

Good to see that you still get surprised, Shan. Considering how many videos you've done, I wasn't sure if there was anything left to surprise you. By the way, my vote would be for Spike. Partly because I want him to win, and partly because he earned it by getting back his soul.

Ron Fehr

Another reason why I'd vote for Spike is because he started doing good even before he got his soul back. Angel didn't start until after his soul was forced on him.

Dennis Bryant

I personally think the prophecy is complete, and it was about Spike. The vampire with a soul will fight in the apocalypse, doubt as to which side he was on. He will die, and then live again..... Seems like Spike's story, with the First's manipulation of him, and his firey death that closed the Hellmouth,stopped an apocalypse and cemented him as a champion. And now, he lives again, just as the prophecy said. My opinion of course, but in my mind the prophecy is done and completed.

Katherine Thoreson

Your reaction to Lindsey was everything I could hope for. Yay! Also, one thing I really like about this episode is I feel like this is the first time in 11 1/2 seasons of the vampire Whedonverse that we got a legit, authentic, this is what vampires can really do, vampire fight. :D As for who should shanshu.....that's something that I've thought about a lot over the years, and I honestly still don't know. They both have reasons that they deserve it. We should just change the prophecy to say the vampireS with a soul. ;)

Hef

Who should Shanshu? Spike. All he ever wanted was to be in a committed relationship with a woman, even as a vampire. Angel's motivation for being is to be a champion of the people, so much so that he turned his back on being human and even destroyed a ring that would have allowed him to live in the daylight like a human. no brainer. [no spoilers here, just responding to the hypothetical]

Hef
>>24430735

and i'm not just saying that because i know how much you love Spike. :P

Daywalker
>>24181008

Agreed. The DVD commentary is great in the Season 5 box set.

Daywalker

Helping to save world from apocalypse credit IMHO: Season 1 - Angel, pretty clear as they go in search of the Master together and Spike wasn't even there). Season 2 - Spike, although he does it for selfish reasons. Season 3 - Angel, again he helps with the Buffy's graduation plan but again, Spike is not there. Season 4, Spike plots against the Scoobies but helps at the very end, again for selfish reasons but I think still counts. Angel does not help for seasons 4, 5 and 6 as he is in LA. Season 5, Spike helps agains Glory. Season 6, Spike leaves town after the horribleness of what he's done so neither Angel nor Spike help fight/save Willow. Season 7, both Spike and Angel help. Final tally? Angel has 3 assists (seasons 1, 3 and 7) while Spike has 4 assists (seasons 2, 4, 5 and 7). If you're going by pure numbers then Spike wins, but I think there should be an asteriks since his motives weren't pure for half the times he helps to save the world. But hey, results are results, right? Especially if the result is saving the world. Oh crap, forget about the weird apocalyps in the Zeppo episode (the one where we follow Xander). Angel helps there too. A tie? I guess?

Anonymous

Harmony for Shanshu!

Bellibel
>>24466960

Well then we can also count the one in Doomed, spike tried helping.

BiPolar HoneyBear
>>24466960

Spike helped save the world when he didn't have a soul. Take away Spikes soul and he will still do the right thing in the end and he would probably just get a new soul. Take away Angels soul and he is pure evil. Then we can talk about who they were before they became vampires. Liam a violent drunk and William a soft hearted poet that cared a bit too much about his mother. I think that says everything about who deserves it more.

BiPolar HoneyBear

Spike helped save the world when he didn't have a soul. Take away Spikes soul and he will still do the right thing in the end and he would probably just get a new soul. Take away Angels soul and he is pure evil. Then we can talk about who they were before they became vampires. Liam a violent drunk and William a soft hearted poet that cared a bit too much about his mother. I think that says everything about who deserves it more.