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Buffy The Vampire Slayer S06E19 - Seeing Red FULL REACTION (Patreon)

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2018-11-15 16:01:01
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Anonymous

As a spike/spuffy fan I am absolutely shitting myself to watch your reaction which we all know the reason why. Not so fun fact: James Marsters told everyone that it was the hardest day of his professional life and said the idea came from one of the female writers because in college she had been broken up with by her boyfriend and decided that if she went over to his place and if they made love one more time everything would be fine. And so she tried to do that and really kind of jumped the guy and he had to push her off and say “No, you have to leave now.” They obviously flipped the sexes of the characters to make it more horrific and to remind people that no matter how charming spike can be, he is still evil.

Anonymous

*Sees the e-mail notification that this has been uploaded* "Oh, no..."

Callumbo Heath

This episode really makes me... see red

Anonymous

James Marsters (Spike) said this about the bathroom scene, "It was the hardest day of my professional life. I was curled up in a fetal position in between takes." He's ok talking about it, but he will not watch a scene like that in a movie or show. It really affected him, but he is glad they did it because people sometimes forget Spike is evil and this is reminding the viewers. Such a great performance by SMG and James Marsters.

Anonymous

I'm afraid!

Jarrod Wild

Amber Benson in the main credits. What a way to kick us in the teeth.

cosmotron

I have...complicated feelings about this episode and what happens in it. I won’t get into it now, but it’s always rough the first time through. Sorry you are suffering for our entertainment lol.

Khanach

So that's what I looked like 15 years ago...

Timotey Kuhn

Plain and simple......I'm sorry....The instant his gun rang out,, I just stopped watching. I couldn't handle the thought of watching you in that much hurt. The idea of doing so was just so gross and unseemly. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

Sheriff Uchiha

The only episode Amber Benson was in the opening credits...

Anonymous

I think this is the highest point in the sadistic side of Joss Whedon, and deam he has one. I´m really sorry to see you hurt, I remember I was so hurt then, all my heart with you Shan.

KiwiJello

I have seen this before and I am shook. I was crying already, then I looked at your reaction (stunned, then disbelief), I cried even more. Why does Joss hate happiness? To make it worse, I forgot THIS was the episode with Spike and Buffy in the bathroom. Ugh. Stabbed in the heart. I feel like writing Joss some hate-mail all over again!!! ;)

Anonymous

Orbs get smashed - you called that right away. There were a couple bigger story points... Really glad this isn't your last Buffy for the week.

Holi117

i'm just afraid for your reaction overall... i have seen so many Spike fans turn on him at this point which i can understand, but it makes me sad all the same. I dont condone his actions, but there is so much else I could say about it as well... you have to look at the charcaters, their history, their emotions and thought processes. Spike was so out of it, crazed with desperation and longing, and the second he hits that wall and snaps into the moment and see's what he tried to do, almost did, the look on his face breaks my heart. He didn't go there to do that, he didnt even really mean to do what he did... sigh... he cant be a monster and he cant be a man, and he has no idea where he fits or what to do about it at this point :(

J.D.

"I'm a little worried about this episode because there was this episode of Arrow"... Oh... yeah... someone should have warned you.

Anonymous

Warren went from being a joke into an actually scary person

Anonymous

Awww shan the ending your face awwww that's how we all felt!!!

Anonymous

Funnily enough Tara and Warren are actually married IRL.

Anonymous
>>17188501

I'm with you. I know everyone has very strong emotions about the Spike/Buffy bathroom scene - and it was horrifying. No two ways about it. But I've also seen so many just turn on the character and never recover. I'm thinking of other reaction viewers who loved the character up to that scene and then despised him from then on after that. It's tough. But as you said, if you can take a breath after the emotions of the scene die down, and at least try to understand the character and what's happening to him, I think there's at least some room to not despise him forevermore. But to each their own.

Anonymous

My least fav episode for so many reasons :'(

Will

Oh Shan, I really enjoy your reactions, but I wish I'd never seen a look like that on your face. :( Horrible episode.

Inseriousity

Ah, whenever you were so happy about Spuffy scenes, we all knew you'd get to this episode eventually and it hurt so much.

Fizzy

I enjoy the Buffy/Spike dynamic but I never shipped them in the traditional sense. I enjoy their scenes together, but acknowledge how toxic their relationship is. Many people think this episode is OOC for Spike, but people are forgetting that he’s a vampire who raped and pillaged entire villages before meeting Buffy. He mistakens obsession with love, which is unhealthy.

Fizzy

I think it’s fine to still like him as a character, as long as you acknowledge that he is flawed and toxic. So many Spike fans make excuses for him in this episode, saying that his behavior is out of character and never really seeing it from Buffy’s point of view. He attempted to rape her and that’s not something you should just get over.

Holi117
>>17190009

definitely not something she should just "get over" and obviously he is totally wrong. No, its not out of character for Spike the vampire, but it is out of character for him in the sense that he doesn't hurt the women he loves, not really. he does anything for the person he loves, and has always been that way, before and after he was turned. BUT, his world view is a little skewed, having had Dru, Angelus and Darla groom him for a century on how to behave and what is or isnt acceptable. Dru loved the pain. Everytime Buffy went to him for sex, she would verbally and physically abuse him, treat him like shit, and he would stand there and take it. She broke up with him, and it broke his heart. Dawn comes over and tells him he hurt buffy by sleeping with anya, he thinks there is a chance, that she must love him if his actions hurt her... Thinks it doesnt have to be a secret now everyone knows and buffy has no reason to fear or hide their relationship... Of course, talking ends up going the wrong way, and he loses control of his demon side for the first time in years... falls to pieces, desperate to be close to her, for her to feel something for him. How many times did buffy tell him no, put him down, shove him away and never truly mean it, and actually want him? How many mixed signals did he get. He is a demon, and he doesnt have the same thoughts like a human would (should) have... As far as Spike knows, he and buffy are an even match and she can kick his ass anytime, any place. He isn't toxic, but he is flawed, and he is a demon... He was doing the best he could, and he messed up BADLY... I just cant hate him for it. (SO sorry for the rant lol)

Thomas Hansen

Spike is very often a fun character to watch and incredibly easy to like. But he's also a monster and a demon without a soul, and I think it was important for the show to remind people of that. Whether an attempted rape was the "right" way to do that is arguable, but I do think the intention behind the scene has significant value.

Alexandra Wege

I dreaded going into this episode. °o°

Fizzy

I’m not a fan of Delena at all. The Vampire Diaries romanticized their whole relationship, BTVS at least acknowledged the toxicity of Spuffy (ignoring season 7). Buffy knew he was a monster and she knew sleeping with him was wrong. The show was at least self aware about that. The Vampire Diaries portrayed Delena as some epic love, when it wasn’t. Elena was so spineless when she was with Damon.

Anonymous

A couple points: About Spike ------ I don’t believe Spike is feeling guilty; without a soul it just isn’t possible. (If he were feeling guilty, my head would explode- there has to be at least one consistent thing about vampire mythology in this show!). What I do think is happening is that Spike is finally realizing for the first time that he may not fit into his ideal of love ( As he understood it when he was still William the ‘Bloody Awful Poet’). After all he has a concept of ‘Monster’ and ‘Man’ and is aware that he does not fit into either. This means that he does have a vague outline of how a man should behave towards the woman he loves. You can see in this scene how this realization enrages him/fills him with despair. ------ Spike’s line of “What have I done?.... Why didn’t I do it?” was very telling. He has reached an almost dualistic personality. There is a monster and there is the remnants of the man, William. Spike feels trapped because he can’t fit into either role, and now he finally wants to do something about this. About Buffy ------ “I could never trust you enough for it to be love.” This line is sooo interesting for two reasons. 1.) When Buffy was asking about Angel’s history with Drusilla, he was worried she wouldn’t love him anymore after he told her about his evil past, so he asked her straight up if she loved him, she replied “I love you, I don’t know if I trust you…” This means that her idea of love has changed as she grew up. When she began to love Angel, she loved naively, despite not having trust and eventually she got burned. Now with Spike, she admits that she could feel something, does feel something, but now having trust is an essential part of love for Buffy. 2.) I hated how the writers seemed to physically depower Buffy to the point that this scene could happen to her, it really rubs me the wrong way though I yet don’t have the right words to explain why. One explanation I have going on in my head is part of what prevented Buffy from fighting back more effectively earlier (not her bullshit injury, we saw her fall from the tower in the middle of her fight against Glory and she was fine before that point!) was because against her will she had had some sort of trust that Spike wouldn’t go that far, wouldn’t do that. So what she screaming and upset about was not that she felt helpless in that moment but that that trust was broken?-- and she was reminded again that Spike is, whatever else he is, a demon, a monster. About Warren ------ I understand his significance in the themes and arc of the season. I do. I just wish the symbolism wasn’t quite so overt. His ‘orbs,’ really? Also I really don’t like that the Trio are just referred to generally as immature little boys. Not because this is too insulting for them (it isn’t), but because it seems to imply that adult men are *so* much better, that this is a growing up issue. That this is a problem of immature men who living up to the right standard of manhood as opposed to this being a systemic problem with masculinity and sexism in general that has nothing to do with the ‘immaturity.’ To be clear: I am not arguing that all adult men are like Warren, (most are not, thank god! They are human beings like any other with all the flaws/virtues this entails), but that age and adulthood has nothing to do with sexist behavior. In fact many parts of our culture’s coming of age ideals for men may in fact lean towards sexist behavior. About Tara ------Freaking Joss Whedon. -*-A note for any people who might attacked by a man they know ( and yet another reason why I want to strangle the writers): One kick/move is NOT ENOUGH. In fact, it can make your attacker hurt you more/push you down harder, so you cannot just kick/hit and then pause to talk to them. Don’t think for a second that some of the scenarios shown on Buffy on men’s attitudes on rape are realistic. No male is as soulless/delusional as Spike or childish/stupid as Andrew and Jonathan to not realize they are, in fact, committing a rape. (Or at least the number of men in the world who are like that are negligible). In real life, no attacker would ever be that oblivious and “just need” a jolt to wake them up. If you are able to, attack and hurt them enough to give yourself time to run. -*** -A note for the note: this is not a spoiler, but the writer for the scene between Spike and Buffy in the bathroom was written by a female writer about her experience with her ex, where she tried to force herself on him convinced that somehow if they had sex, he would love her again(?). I realize that this might seem contrary to the point the I made earlier that most people are not delusional enough about their actions that they wouldn’t recognize if they were trying to sexually assault someone. However I didn’t actually most people, I said most men. And the reason I said that is because I believe sexism has given this culture the impression that women are not capable of raping people (either by drugs or brute force). The truth is that they are and some do, however because of that general cultural impression and the fact that this culture generally makes men cognizant that they tend to be physically stronger than women, it would be much more difficult for any man in real life to fool himself in that way. (I believe that most men who say, in real life, they didn’t realize their actions were rapey are just lying.)

Anonymous
>>17189917

@ Mittencrab and Tamara Summers, Tell MittenCrab to delete last part of comment before Shannon sees because it is a spoiler! --Nevermind: Resolved! :)

Anonymous

@ ASR/ SHANNON, DO NOT READ ANY COMMENT REPLIES (....) @MittenCrab, thanks for your quick and helpful reply! :) Please forgive the panic and the all caps.

Danna

Your reaction was EVERYTHING! I've seen this episode at least 20 times and my reaction just now was still exactly the same as yours :'(

UTU49

I'm so sorry, Shan. It'll feel better when it stops hurting.

Anonymous

I wish Dawn didn't have such an excited reaction seeing Tara come out of Willie's bedroom. Yes it's great that Willow and Tara are friends again. But that's where it should end. (Of course I've said this before)

Ryan

Only Joss Whedon can make someone make that specific face. The man is just evil, Angelus would call that expression a work of art. He's hurt me many many many times but this one really takes the prize and I'll never forgive him for it.

Anonymous

Oh my! Usually it is fun to watch people experience these shocking moments for the first time, but I felt my stomach twist as Tara's death approached. You look like you were actually going to be sick, though, like you were having a physical reaction. Every happy moment on Buffy is just there so that episodes like this one can hurt more. :'(

Andrew Pulrang

I have a thought on Joss' habit of emotionally devastating his fans, with loved characters being killed, attempted rapes, and what has I think later come to be called "killing your lesbians" ... the trope of lesbian characters specifically being killed off more than usual. I think that TV writers like Joss grew up watching TV that was mostly light and airy, with very low stakes. You could never get too upset because no characters were that well developed, and you would never make anything happen that couldn't be reset in the next episode. Part of the richness of more recent TV is that writers are very motivated to up the ante. So for awhile, writers like Joss probably saw no real reason to hold back on making ends of seasons as emotionally wrenching as possible. Nowadays, I think there is a little more counter-restraint in play. A writer now is more likely to weigh the narrative power of Spike attempting to rape Buffy with the possibility that this would ruin the story for some viewers, maybe many of them. Same for what we saw right at the end here. When this came out, TV was still in this new phase of breaking boundaries and doing whatever was available to get viewers totally invested.

Ryan Wilson

I read and heard on the show's commentary that the show was not expecting the amount of backlash they got for killing Tara. I guess they didn't realize how much of a beloved character she was (Talking for myself, Tara was my second favorite character). I've also seen in comments on youtube videos where people have said that they are still to this day piss at Joss for killing her, and just like Shan were in utter shock and cried when they first saw it happen(myself included). Then wished Joss straight to hell when they went to bed, lol.

Ryan
>>17197878

I was still in college when this came out and a bunch of us would watch it in the common room together. 20-25 people each week without fail, and by the end of this episode Tara was dead and Spike had tried to rape Buffy, we were all wrecked, people were throwing fits. With so many us there and hurting we all moved from grief right into anger within an hour, Joss would not have made it out of that room alive had he been there.

Anonymous
>>17193286

Adding to the attempted rape scene. I think this might be very triggering for someone who has lived something like this, even dangerous (I don´´t know, my thoughts). here is no warning and is not something expected from a show like this. I would keep saying this scene was a really bad decision.

cil

This is why the issue of conscent is such a slippery slope. I tried to say this in the comments section of another video and got attacked by Spuffy fans. When someone says no to your advances, walk away. It's not hard. Instead of thinking you can stick around to change their mind, just walk away. Don't confuse pressure with persistence. You're not entitled to anyone's attention or affection. If Spike had backed off when Buffy said no the first time, the attempted rape never would've happened. I'm sure his fans will come out the woodwork saying "Well she slept with him before, so of course he thought it'd happen again...". WRONG. Just because someone sleeps with you once (or even twenty) times -- it doesn't mean they're obligated to do it again. Nor does it mean you should expect it from the person whenever you want it. Spike is a predator, period. And the only reason Buffy even had sex with him at all is because she was depressed about being ripped out of heaven.

FernWithy

I tend to go with the Doylist perspective on this episode: This was an immense and terrible writing mistake if they intended to maintain loyalty to Spike. (It's not necessarily out of character--we know that this is part of the vampiric behavior pattern, and we heard it more or less explicitly from Angel. But there's a difference between seeing it onscreen and hearing about it happening long ago. And there's a difference between seeing it in this relatively realistic setting and seeing unsouled Angel murdering Jenny. The problem is that this is a bridge too far for a LOT of people in keeping a character relatable, and since that was the clear intent--I know Shan's seen the last episode, so that's not a spoiler--it was just WAY out of bounds for anything they could have been planning. It was beyond the pale.) But, because I DO recognize it as a massive writing mistake rather than a massive character mistake, I'm willing to more or less ignore it and accept whatever lame-ass excuse they give to get themselves out of it. From a Watsonian perspective (a) the final twist of the season shows that it's a massive turning point, (b) after a season of mutually abusive behavior, I can see there being legitimate confusion about consent, especially given Spike's unsouled state, and (c) we've seen people do a lot of unforgivable things on this show and be forgiven for it. Xander has been hanging on for several seasons after doing something fairly similar in "The Pack," and Angel's actions as Angelus were arguably more severe, and he still got forgiveness, so... you know. I'll play by those rules.

Anonymous
>>17195681

"Every happy moment on Buffy is just there so that episodes like this one can hurt more." I remember when the Game of Thrones author said in an interview, "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." To this day, I still haven't determined whether the Buffy/Angel series have me valuable life experience, or clinical bipolar disorder.

Anonymous

I may say I actually liked the orbs metaphor, as obvious as it is. This lame trio is not capable and doesn´t want to endure all the hardships that mean to grow up so they manufacture this fake masculinity, fake balls are one way to put it but also trying to live up to movies and comics standards that had nothing to do with reality and tend to represent a very toxic masculinity (especially the old ones). With these fraud methods they try to look strong but end up hurting people instead.

Brandon Wiesner

This is the episode I was most nervous about others spoiling for you. Now you have seen it and I'm so sorry for how you're feeling. Spike trying to rape Buffy. Tara getting killed. It's a lot to take and the episode starts off so well, with some great Tillow moments. Damn Joss, that mad, evil genius!

Bellatronics

I wasn't up to watching this episode earlier. Before I do - Shan, I hope you are ok, I've been worrying for a while about how this episode would affect you. So big hug . And now I'm gonna go watch your reaction. Not sure if I can get into the commenting later or not, as a survivor, I often want to talk about consent and abuse stuff, but other times it is too overwhelming and distressing. Though this is mostly because people forget in the discussion that you never know when you are speaking to a survivor of rape. RIP Tara - there is way too much trauma in this episode. :'( It's so devastating, I still cry every time.

cil
>>17201219

I disagree. I thought his actions this episode were completely in line with what we've seen from his character so far this season. I mean the first time he and Buffy had sex they were beating each other to a bloody pulp just seconds beforehand. Spike can be charming and funny and Marsters is charasmatic as hell, and I think because of this people tend to forget who Spike is. He is a souless demon and that has never changed. He helps Buffy and her friends because its his way into her life -- which is where he wants to be since he's completely infatuated and obsessed with her. The only reason he hasn't eaten her friends is because of his chip.

Anonymous

Sorry you had to see that happen to Tara, Shan. I had the same reaction the first time I saw it. Seeing your reactions is great, but I wasn't looking forward to this. As I tweeted once before, you find some small solace in remembering that it's a television show.

Anonymous

This is why this show has such a rep...pure fantasy tightly entwined with reality. Hugs.

Anonymous

I just finished watching your reaction to this. I remember seeing this particularly tragic episode when it first came out years ago. It was extremely sad and hard for me to watch it. Poor Tara. .....But it was even harder to watch your reaction to it. And your stunned silence afterwards blew me away. I could hear my clock ticking two rooms away.

BaoziBang

This Episode crushed me the first Time I saw it... Here, be happy, sike, let me crush your soul!

Anonymous

"You think you could just do that to me, you think I let you get away with that"... I wonder how many times that words whore said before some type of domestic violence.

Jarrod Wild

This episode was leaked a week in advance of its original airing. Some crafty fans knew what was coming, both with Spike and Tara. Didn't soften the one-two punch though. I never got the claim that there was some need to punish Willow and Tara for having a gay relationship (they were together for 2 years, and Tara was even adopted into the gang in her own special episode in early season 5). Look at the timing of Jenny's death in season 2, or Joyce's in season 5. There was some kind of hope tied to both of them before their lives were suddenly taken. Willow and Tara being gay was just incidental.

Anonymous

Love how you said "Is Anya really your friend though?" to Buffy. No one cares about Anya in the scoobies except for Xander, same way no one cared about Tara except for Willow and maybe Dawn/

Anonymous

One of many of the sadness eps.

Anonymous

When Warren says "you think id let you get away with that" I was like...god this guy is pathetic. Then the first gunshot happened and I froze in disbelief.

Anonymous

i always get half an anxiety attack when i watch that episode because i know whats gonna happen and i dread that moment

Calvin Allen

Does Xander ever actually apologize in the entirety of the show? Interesting how Buffy was the first and only one to say she was sorry

Jean Olenick

He apologized to Cordy in Becoming pt 1 for snapping at her during the heated scene where the Scoobies were discussing re-ensouling Angel. I think he also apologized to Cordelia in season 3 after Lover's Walk.

Anonymous

Yeah, this wasn't a fun reaction to watch. It's heartbreaking. It still hurts watching that episode.

Anonymous

I remember when I first saw this episode in 2002 and the forums was filled with Spuffy fans trying to make excuses for Spike (like "he didn't understand it was wrong" and things like that) and I was so disgusted by it. It made me dislike Spuffy fans a lot. I already had a problem with the ones that thought their relationship in season 6 was beautiful and perfect but this made it way worse. But reading the discussions on YouTube have really opened my eyes to how many different types of Spuffy fans there are and that those ones where not representing most of them, they where just the loudest. I love learning new things about people and opening my eyes to new things, so I really liked this. I will however NEVER understand Wincest fans! ;)