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Angel S03E03 - That Old Gang Of Mine FULL REACTION (Patreon)

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2018-09-06 17:46:00
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(Episodes 2 & 3 of this season were named incorrectly when reacting and so I watched them both in the incorrect order, they are named correctly now but I may reference this in the reactions).

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Comments

Ritchie

While I do love both shows, I definitely enjoy Buffy more. It was the first TV show I fell in love with, the first one that made me really feel something, and also the first show with LGBT representation I had ever seen. It holds a special place in my heart so I could be biased but I definitely feel Buffy is the better show.

Second_Strike

So I think I commented on this last week before it got taken down, but for me personally, season 2/3 of Angel versus season 6 of Buffy is when I started to prefer Angel. Like I love the last 2 seasons of Buffy, but I feel like I kept watching Buffy because I was so attached to the characters, whereas I kept watching Angel because the show gets SOOO good. (That's not to say there aren't some crappy episodes of Angel, and some amazing episodes of Buffy left.) Strangely enough, despite being so attached to the the characters from Buffy, I actually prefer the cast of Angel. (Minus Gunn. Gunn is my Riley.) Cordy is so amazing and I promise I'm not the only one of your viewers who thinks that Wes is the greatest character in the Buffyverse,

Fizzy

Angel is underrated as a show tbh. It deserves more praise then it gets. I think both shows are equally good. Angel is more serious and dark while Buffy is campy and fun. The shows are different and hard to compare. I wasn’t a fan of season 4 and early season 1 of Angel, but the writers took way more risks on Angel. I’m one of the few who loves Buffy season 6 because it’s darker then the rest of the seasons and deals with complex and complicated emotions. If I really had to choose I would choose Buffy only because the emotional stuff is done better on that show.

Brendan O'Connor

Gunn gets better after this episode, I think this story was important for him moving forward. Wesley is superb all around, being a great leader, and staying steady at gunpoint, especially after what happened last season. I feel bad that you saw "That Vision Thing" after saying "no one hurt Cordy!"

4Tom4lepus4
>>15289135

Yeah, it really is.. Everyone talks (deservedly) about Buffy being an iconic show, but Angel is up there with it. I love both shows equally. Also, I'm with you, Buffy season 6 is one of my favorites along with season 5 and 3

Anonymous

I would say that I probably prefer Buffy overall to Angel, though I love both shows dearly and appreciate what they each bring to the table. I think Buffy just might be one of the big shows I go back to when I think about story structure, and how (in its best seasons) it's so nimbly able to balance its long-term arcs with individual episodes that can stand on their own. In Season 3, it feels kind of amazing that Buffy and the Scoobies don't really suspect the Mayor of much until as late as Episode 15, and it's only after that that Faith joins up with him. Yet, almost every episode up until that point has done such a great job of setting things in place (showing how guarded is about trusting people after Gwendolyn Post betrays her, having Giles get fired and replaced by the inexperienced Wesley, letting us in on how the Mayor runs things behind the curtain by hiring Mr. Trick early on) and the follow-through is so satisfying that I just marvel at how they pull things like that off. Also, it's probably the show I go back to the most when I need to laugh a lot (Doppelgangland, Band Candy) or wallow in sadness (Innocence, Becoming, The Body). That said, what sticks out about Angel to me is just how thoroughly rich its level of characterization is. Buffy definitely has that as well (especially where Willow is concerned), but it's really shocking just what Angel does with the arcs of Cordelia and Wesley as it goes along. I think you mentioned as early as the Season 1 wrap-up how surprising/impressive it was that the show was able to make you care so strongly about the two of them as people, which I definitely feel (especially how they spend so much of their time on Buffy as comic relief characters more than anything), but the show makes it work so well, and that's only the tip of the iceberg (no spoilers). And Angel himself gets to display a fair amount of range as a character when out of Buffy's orbit, which I also appreciate.

Anonymous
>>15293998

TL; DR - Probably Buffy overall, but they're both so great. Also, Season 5 of Angel is probably my favorite individual season of the Buffyverse after Buffy Season 3.

Anonymous

I love them both equally. Angel Seasons 2, 3, and 5 are exceptional and just as good as Buffy's best seasons. I actually like Angel as a character in his own show. I hated Angel on Buffy. I never got Bangel. Angel, the character is so much better in LA, with his own crew. And you'll never convince me Buffy is really the love of his life, hahahahaha. That's definitely something to discuss after watching the entirety of both shows.

4Tom4lepus4
>>15294503

Ahahahaahaha SAME. I could not for the love of God stand Angel's character on Buffy, nor could I give a flying crap about this "epic" love story between him and Buffy... and then he gets his own show and I love his character. Still not my fave, but I really like the guy. And I think it's in large because in his own show, he got to interact with a variety of people, something he rarely got to do on Buffy. I mean, the Angel-Cordelia dynamic alone is exploring Angel's character much more than anything on Buffy did :D

Andrew Pulrang

Not one of their better episodes. I get what they were trying to do with the racism comparison, but it doesn't fit Gunn as we know him very well. The gang part, with them losing the true meaning of their mission made sense and kind of worked, but you are right, it doesn't make sense that Gunn would be so casual about the murder of demons that were doing no harm. It was badly written. Joss and his crew are good at a lot of things, but trying to be insightful about racism isn't one of them. Just one of their few weaknesses. That said, this might also be one of those episodes that relies a bit more on an American perspective and set of experiences. Not that we are the only ones who can understand it, or that all Americans can, just that there are different kinds of racism in different countries and different settings, and some of this was very specific to the U.S.

John Sturchio

I get what you're saying, thing is any humans can be bigoted, so just because they belong to a group that has faced discrimination doesn't mean they can't be prejudiced themselves. I read a nonfiction book about a holocaust survivor who was himself racist against other people, even after what he went through.

John Sturchio

Also, with Gunn specifically keep in mind that before he met Angel he spent his whole life fighting vampires and being loyal to his group, and he was very set in his ways, so he still is definitely getting used to the idea of good demons and it makes sense that his loyalties would be tested in this episode. Flawed characters are better, it's why I like Xander even though he was often a jerk in the early seasons.

John Sturchio

And when it comes to the shows, I will always prefer Buffy since I grew up with the DVD set and only got into Angel later on.

Anonymous

I think this episode displayed one of the themes that many tv shows with monsters in them have. Basically not all monsters are bad. Demons in this universe are generally considered evil because they lack a soul and they have destructive tendencies. However in Buffy and Angel demons are not always bad but killing them isnt all that bad either. When Gunn asked Wesley are we gonna kill or thank whoever is killing demons even Wesley wasn't for sure which shows that killing demons is not that bad because if something killed a human whether that human was good or bad then it is evil cause killing humans is just wrong. Of course the gang in this episode was extreme as they threatened to burn the humans in Caritas just for associating with demons which clearly crosses the line because they were taking things too far. But in season 1 episode 16 of Angel titled the Ring where Angel fought demons in a kill or be killed ring; team Angel set the demons free and Wesley in a cheery mood says they "set the captives free" implying they did good but Cordelia points out "didnt we set bunch a demons free" which begs the question did they really do a good thing by freeing a bunch of demons. So i understand Gunns conflict because killing demons isn't all that bad, but of course extremist ideals aren't good either, so you just deal with each situation differently and be flexible in your beliefs.

Anonymous

I like Buffy more than Angel overall but Angel has the best individual season of either show IMO. I think I would rate them like this: Angel 5 Buffy 6 Buffy 7 Angel 3 Buffy 5 Buffy 3 Buffy 2 Angel 2 Angel 1 Angel 4 Buffy 4 Buffy 1 My favorite characters are: Wes Buffy Fred Giles Cordy Spike Willow Faith Dawn Anya

Shashank

Buffy is my favorite show period by a lot. I really like Angel [top 20 show] but it’s nowhere close to Buffy for me. I keep rewatching Buffy [8 times so far all the way through] and it keeps getting better, I find more meaning in it, more humor and more compassion. I’ve seen Angel 3 times and have grown to appreciate the characters and metaphors more but I find it to be less Shakespearean and simply not as enjoyable or good [just my opinion obviously, though I’m sure if pushed I’d make a unhealthy long case for why] Fav seasons B5, B2, B6, B3, B7, B1, A2, A1, B4, A5, A3, A4

Vincent Valentin

Buffy when I rewatch i rewatch all of it pretty much where as angel ill watch a handful of episodes from season 1 the end of season 2 generally skip all of season 3 a handful from 4 and then all of season 5. So if I were to rate them it would probably go B:6 A:5 B:5 B:3 B:7 B:2 A:2 B:1 B:4 A:4 A:1 A:3.

Anonymous

I like Angel just a little more than Buffy. Coincidentally, my favorite season for both show's is season's 5.

s jaco

I'm a Buffy fan by far, though S5 of Angel is a good one, maybe just maybe a bit better than S1 of Buffy. So I'd say B6, B5,/B7 (I cannot decide which should be at two or three), B4, B2, B3, A5, B1, A2, A1, A4, A3.

Anonymous

I love Angel the show and the character a lot more than Buffy. (Not to say that I don't like Buffy) I feel more connected to the themes of the show and the characters themselves. After Angel and Cordy left Buffy I began to tune out a little but Angel the show kept my interests even in the bad season.

Anonymous
>>15302711

My list is very much opposite of yours: Buffy 2 Buffy 5 Buffy 4 Buffy 3 Angel 2 Angel 1 Angel 4 Angel 5 Buffy 1 Buffy 7 Buffy 6 Angel 3

Anonymous

As a show as a whole, got to love the Buffy. However theres a season of Angel to come that I would put alongside any Buffy, so at the time I would have found it harder to make a choice.

Anonymous

Mostly...I like the 'Whedon"

Anonymous

Sorry...I typed that off my notes!

Anonymous

I like Buffy a lot, but Angel became my favorite after my second watching of it. While Buffy has the advantage of an extra two seasons(because Angel was canceled) Angel still has season 5 which many consider to be the best season in the whole Buffyverse. I do love both shows though. Angel just appeals to me more, probably due to it being aimed toward an older audience considering the subject matters it deals with.

Anonymous

angel is my show buffy did not keep my attention

Anonymous

I like Buffy way better, I've always seen Angel as an extension of Buffy that allowed the development of different characters to grow after leaving the BTVS, like Cordy, Wes, Faith etc. I've always felt that the better episodes of Angel are the ones with Buffy characters in them like Darla, Dru and others, but these are Buffy characters. I really like Angel but I could never see it as an stand alone show.

Shashank

I wonder if you’d get slightly different answers to the Angel/Buffy question if you asked it on a Buffy video? I assume there is a decent amount of people who only watch Buffy.

Second_Strike
>>15312378

Which is such a shame. I really think Angel at its highest points is just as good as Buffy at its highest. If nothing else hopefully watching Shan react is exposing people who have never seen Angel to what a great show it is lol.

Becky Howell

I honestly couldn’t chose, they are both two of my favourite shows I have ever watched. Personally these last 3 seasons of Angel are some of the best television I have watched, but so are the last 2 seasons of Buffy.

UTU49
>>15303367

"I keep rewatching Buffy [8 times so far all the way through] and it keeps getting better, I find more meaning in it, more humor and more compassion." -- Nicely put, Shashank.

UTU49

I love both shows. My all time favorites are Buffy and Game of Thrones. Angel is about 4th or 5th, so both Buffy and Angel are at the very top of my list. There are very few shows that I like even close to as much as I love Buffy and Angel.

UTU49

This episode is freakin' tense. And the majority of it is just people talking about where their loyalties lie. I'm glad we got a little bit of humour to lighten things a little ("Mmmmm... Aaangel... ").

UTU49

Remember that Gunn is stuck between 2 "families". Also Cordy and Wes have been living with the idea of a souled vampire much longer than he has. Like all characters in the Buffyverse he makes big mistakes, but he's still a part of the team. He has risked his life to save Cordy and Wes, and that's still a part of who he is. Like all Buffyverse characters, Gunn is on a journey -- he's a growing, changing character.

UTU49
>>15319421

I hope I didn't sound bossy or judgmental. That was not my intention. I just felt that Gunn was in such an incredibly uncomfortable situation that he deserved a little defending. I also agree, however, that there are lots of ways in which he could have handled these events better.

J.D.

The answer is Firefly. It's not really close. But as between the two Vampire-oriented Whedon shows, Buffy's clearly better... mostly because of seasons 2-3. There's no Angel season that's as good as either of those two. That being said, Fred's probably my favourite character in either of the two shows, and "A Hole in the World" is probably up there among the best episodes in either. It's actually kind of hard to separate the two shows once Angel starts and Buffy et al graduate high school... and seasons 1-5 of Angel are definitely better than seasons 4-7 of Buffy.

FernWithy

I don't really make a distinction between the Buffyverse shows. In general, I like the Buffy characters and aesthetic more, but the writing in most of Angel (no spoilers to say where my issues are) is more consistent.

Richard Lucas
>>15322218

It’s all in personal taste. My favorite seasons of Buffy are 4-6, by far. But I love 2-3 also, and 7, and Angel 2-5. The only seasons I find a bit weak are the first season of each show, and even they have many great moments.

Justin Brinkley

I grew up loving both shows and my favorite would often switch back & forth. That being said, Angel has been my favorite for years now. The themes, character arcs, gray area it explores and willingness to reinvent itself have always left me with a feeling of awe.

cil

gunn hasn't done anything any differently than other characters have done in seasons past...on both buffy and angel. he's not the first to betray the group or keep a secret or have his loyalties divided. and yet somehow when gunn does it people hold it against him. not surprised though.

Bisibia

On the favorites, it goes by season for me. Top 5 would be: B ssn 3 B ssn 6 A ssn 5 B ssn 2 A ssn 2 Both shows can hit the same highs... but in general, buffy has more highs. But Angel has less lows. I think either way, you miss half the story without the other one.

Alexis Cardarella

I think what you were trying to get at is that an oppressed race would have empathy, not prejudice, towards another oppressed race. While that does sound more logical, it’s definitely not always the case. There’s much in history that attests to that.

Ryan Martinez

Your racism comment. Boop on your nose.

Einar Sigurðsson

while I generally dislike the Gunn town between loaylties storyline, this whole episode is just so tense...I love the showdown at Caritas. Brilliant work from the director

Anonymous

To answer your question. First time experience, watching Angel was far more enjoyable than Buffy. But I find Buffy more re-watchable. Angel characters/character development over Buffy's any day though.

Anonymous

Gunn doesn't fit in with the AI gang, I don't like him at this point. He is one dimensional and doesn't offer much besides the boring gang stories atm.

Anonymous
>>15305396

I feel like all the characters are champions in Angel. In Buffy, she's the champion and then occasionally Spike. The other characters never feel very important, they don't have major plot lines at this point in time (S6) and they can't even defend themselves after 6 years with the slayer. They feel useless sometimes. On Angel: Lorne reads Aura's, Fred is a Physicist, Wes is a bookie, Cordelia has the visions and Gunn despite his boring gang stories, has some kind of story and purpose.

Vicky N
>>15297361

The intention was good but the premise ruins it. The parallel between black people and demons is problematic at best and racist at worst. Demons are culturally expression of evil and only in the buffyverse they twist the meaning of being a demon by introducing non evil ones as if they were just another race. The argument is that Gunn’s gang doesn’t distinguish bertween good and bad demons, is like saying that the KKK doesn’t distinguish between good and bad black people. And I find it even more offensive that they make African Americans behave like ignorant violent racists. God, I hate this episode so much!

Dennis Bryant

For your question, I think overall I do like Angel more. Buffy has some really great episodes, but overall, for theme and stories, I enjoy Angel more. It feels like a more adult show, while Buffy felt like it was aimed at a slightly younger audience.

Eric Haefele

In answer to your question, pitting Angel vs Buffy. It is not even a close call. The only reason I watch Angel is for the cross-overs. I prefer the cast of characters in Buffy, with the exception of Xander, who I could live without. Buffy, Spike, Willow, Giles, even Anya. I never cared for Angel even when he was on Buffy. I am a 69 year old man who much prefers heroines to heroes.

Eric Haefele

This episode reminds me of Riley when he learned Willow was dating a werewolf.