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Angel S02E16 - Epiphany FULL REACTION (Patreon)

Published:
2018-07-26 16:06:32
Edited:
2018-08-11 17:37:50
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Comments

Second_Strike

Understandably a majority of the comments are on the Buffy episode for this week, but I'll just say that Reprise and Epiphany are two of my favorite Angel episodes. Quiet-ish episodes that really focus more on the thematic elements of the show, plus pretty much every character gets good progression. The conversation between Angel and Kate at the end is in my personal top 5 favorite scenes from the show.

Anonymous

That scene in the courtyard with Angel and Kate is one of my favorite scenes in the Buffyverse. What Angel said -- the whole "nothing we do matters, so all that matters is what we do" is pretty much a statement of humanist philosophy. And the thing with how Kate had never invited Angel into her place was, IMO deliberately left ambiguous. Kate clearly believed it was some higher power stepping in, but it could equally be that she died, if only briefly like Buffy in Prophecy Girl, and that was what let Angel enter the apartment.

Shashank

You looked so disturbed during Angel and Darla’s scenes....their relationship is so abusive both ways I didn’t fully get the line “if nothing we do matters then all that matters is what we do” when I was younger. The first time it really began to make sense was watching a segment on the daily show where they interviewed an old women protesting for gay rights in Russia and the interviewer asked why she was out there since there was no/little chance it would make a difference in Russia. She said something like: There this American show Angel, and it said ““if nothing I do matters then all that matters is what I do” I personally find the world pretty meaningful, the quote made a lot more sense and had an emotional impact in relation to situations that do feel hopeless at times like gay rights in Russia]. It reminded me of people fighting for the abolition of slavery in America years before people thought it was possible…..or people dealing with chronic illness…and just about anything difficult that probably isn’t going to be “improved” anytime soon If I can find the daily show segment, I’ll post a link here later. It’s a good call back to the Buffy episode amends as well when Buffy tried to teach a similar lesson to Angel but he’s a bit dense sometimes…

Chaotic Cam
>>14144489

I don't know about the segment itself, but I think Passion of the Nerd has a clip of it (maybe the full thing) in his 'Why You Should Watch Angel' video.

Richard Lucas
>>14144489

That’s amazing that the show Angel made a tangible change in this person’s life! I wonder if Joss and David know?

Andrew Pulrang

Charisma Carpenter, Alexis Denisoff, and J. August Richards outdo themselves as the three of their characters each reacted to Angel's return. I especially liked Gunn's sarcasm, and Cordelia's "You really hurt my feelings" was so quiet and yet heartfelt. Amazing acting all around!

Chris Peacock

I know I am heavily in the minority on this one, but as far as I am concerned, Angel was the one who was right during this entire time. The team aren't the ones who are in the wrong though. TPTB are. Regardless of the show making it clear that we aren't supposed to side with Angel, the targets Angel went for were bigger picture then the ones the team went for in literally every one of these episodes. Angel may have been wrong to fire the team, but that was TPTB's fault. Sending nonsense missions to distract Angel when he knew and WAS RIGHT that the mission they sent him on didn't matter. At least as much. If TPTB had sent a vision to Cordy that said go stop Darla and Dru the whole breakup wouldn't have happened. And you can't tell me Darla and Dru weren't the bigger threat then the random minor cases the team was on the whole time. And as a whole Wolfram & Hart are a bigger threat than anything we've seen on this show so far and anything we'd seen on Buffy in seasons 1-4. They are not bigger threats than Glory though. Anyway, I am aware I'm partially using a bit of knowledge of future events, but even my first time watching, I felt TPTB were the ones wrong here and thus the ones truly responsible for Angel firing the team.

Chris Peacock

Not a doubt in my mind that Kate was dead when Angel went in. TPTB don't care about Kate. Not a spoiler, just an opinion.

Chris Peacock

Oh and to the surprise of probably everyone of you who cared about my Kate defense in the first place (so probably nobody), it's STILL not time. lol. I know that that will shock at least somebody considering... can't say why, but I have my reasons. Season 4 Episode 1. That's when I'll do it. That's when I'll defend Kate. No spoilers... nothing in that episode matters for anything to do with defending Kate, but it's still the absolute best episode to defend Kate in. Bar none.

Shashank
>>14152117

I think how you feel about his choices depend on what you think his main mission is both in the big cosmic sense and the personal sense. In the big sense is it to help the helpless and save souls and help get people on a good path or to try and defeat evil and kill bad guys. Obviously he does both, but which mission comes first to him and which should for now? Personally is his primary mission to be a hero to save humanity [like buffy is to some extent], or is it to grow morally and internally from the slight asshole he was as a human, from complete evil shit he was as a vampire, and the uncaring/self-pitting angel with a soul he was for 100+ years. It seems to me that the TPTB and Wolfram and Hart are playing a game over his soul [whether he’ll be Luck Skywalker or Darth Vader], he’s not even really part of the bigger battle right now, though he’s prophesized to be a key player, which side he’ll be on is still unclear at times. Personally I think given where he is right now he should focus on the first two[saving peoples souls/helping the helpless and growing morally/internally]…..in a way to prepare and make him capable/worthy of the bigger more cosmic missions. TPTB wanted him to stay away from Darla and Dru because it could lead him down a dark path he might not come back from [Padme: Anakin, you're breaking my heart! And you're going down a path I cannot follow! Anakin Skywalker: Because of Obi-Wan? Padme: Because of what you've done... what you plan to do! Stop!] just to connect up with star wars again…because why not and that is also why Wolfram & Hart were trying to use Darla against him. The senior partners don’t care about the lawyers….some die turning Angel to the dark side they’d be happy with that. To me the biggest problem with his obsession with Wolfram and Hart and Darla/Dru is that its motivated by personal vengeance….which is holding him back from growing into a soul/vampire that actually cares about others more[or at least as much as himself and his destiny]. It’s kind of a catch 22, to fulfill his positive destiny, he has not stop caring about it so much and focused on actually helping and caring about other people now. The show is ambiguous about what his mission should be, and Angel is also unsure at times it really leaves it up to the viewer to make the call a lot of the times….and so we will…

Chris Peacock
>>14152117

The problem is who are TPTB to care about their opinion on any of this? I don’t trust them enough to say that following what they want is automatically the right thing and I swear, this is what I thought when this storyline was airing. Not using any future knowledge here. The oracles in season 1, the literal link to TPTB, were horrible “people”. TPTB themselves have at this point only proven to be dicks who give people headaches to send messages. They are, as far as we are aware, all powerful stand ins for God, or at least Angels (lol). They could do better. They are choosing not to. Why? To make the vision barer a better person? Just pick better people in the first place. The me watching season 2 for the first time was clear on one thing at this point. TPTB are either not as powerful as is implied or as “good” as is implied. Wolfram & Hart isn’t a powerful enough organization to be their opposite force in the universe if TPTB are really what they are implied to be. EDIT: But since Joss doesn't believe in God and calls God the sky bully, it could of course be that he has TPTB (or at least the oracles) act that way completely intentionally.

Chris Peacock
>>14152117

My last comment was more a continuation of my first rather then a reply to yours. This one is my reply. Our “dark” Angel we had for a few episodes gave $2 million to troubled teens, helped Lorne on a mission that had nothing to do with W&H or Darla and asked a “friend” (Boone) for help when he knew he couldn’t handle it alone. (EDIT: He also helped out during The Thin Dead Line which had nothing to do with W&H or Darla either AND went to visit Wesley in the hospital). Yeah, he was real far gone there wasn’t he... Edit2: He also didn't have any of the team arrested for stealing all his books.

Shashank
>>14152117

lol your book comment Thanks for the reply. At this point it gets to metaphysics, what’s finally the purpose of the buffyverse and what most meaningful to you...for example TPTB picking better people...which makes sense if the point is to win the game now but if the game(s) go on forever[or close to it] who plays and what happens to them is more important. I'm not really arguing against your view, like I said the show leaves it open for the viewer to choose, but I just wanted to give a few reasons why some folks like myself aren’t fans of all of Angel's choices. Also “dark” Angel to me wasn't dark because he did horrible things[he still did a lot/mostly good stuff]...it was that he was becoming dark because of what his main motivations were becoming...at least within the buffyverse I think motivations matter As far as "Wolfram & Hart isn’t a powerful enough organization to be their opposite force in the universe" I always thought they were just a small part of the bigger evil, like a face it takes to show in our world now [like that rolling stones song: sympathy for the devil] I always felt TPTB were also flawed, but I never took them to be god’s messengers [despite their delusions of grandeur], just powerful beings….just players in the bigger game

Shashank
>>14152117

Weirdly this discussion reminds me a lot of the discussions I’ve had about the show Lost if anyone here has seen it…..also a great[though not as great as buffy] show

Chris Peacock
>>14152117

I mostly agree, but to continue this conversation I'd have to get into spoilers, so I'll end it now.

Einar Sigurðsson
>>14152434

I disagree. I feel it obvious that the PTD stepped in, not to save Kate, but to put Angel back on the right track. And he could not have saved her if she was dead, he has no breath, remember

Anonymous

Reprise and Epiphany are two of my favorites of the whole season, for Angel's character in particular. "If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do" is a fantastic quote and to me represents one of the core themes of the show. That whole scene with him and Kate is so good. The conversation in the elevator with Holland is also a highlight I've always remembered. Humanity, the concept of evil and its prevalence, and Earth representing the real Hell; it's all very fascinating to me.

Anonymous

And yes we could hear the thunder.

Chris Peacock
>>14152434

The fact that they can smoke means they can give mouth to mouth. Angel was wrong in Prophecy Girl. Regardless, not everyone who is “dead” needs cpr to come back.

Will

I think Ski Lodge is a great name for a demon species.