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Discuss/Feedback - Request Changes (Patreon)

Published:
2020-02-02 23:45:10
Imported:
2020-09

Content

Hey folks, pardon the brief delay, I'll have some sketches to post later today, but first, I want to get some thoughts on changing the Request system-

February Specifically:

I am going to -try- and actually go on a vacation for once! It's been years, if not ever, that I've saved up and planned to try and take a real vacation, so for the last two weeks in Feb, I will be out-of-state with my gf to Hawaii. Naturally I can't do request streams like this, so for this month, I will do all-vote streams on the 9th and 14th (Mon and Fri). Which means no stream today, as I've also got some ophthalmologist appointments with follow-up eye exams early tomorrow that are disrupting, not to mention, I am just simply trying to get a lot done sooner in the month rather than later.

So...the Changes.

I have two options that I think will reduce stress and confusion, both on myself and Patrons regarding the requests. Right now, what is frustrating is the incredibly long wait times between requests, and that the list just gets longer, quicker than I can do them. I would like to find a method that people still find enjoyable and agreeable, while not taking such a logistical toll on my time and creativity. I'd rather it be much more fluid, dynamic, and inspired.

Please be aware that I haven't made any decisions yet, this is purely for discussion and feedback, to see what you all think of the options. I would like to say that leaving it 'as is' is not a favourable, enjoyable option for me, so I'd rather not.

Option 1: Pledge total

This method will keep -most- of the system the same, but attempt to solve the wait times by instead of having a 'cooldown' time-based system, it's based lifetime pledge. A person's request will be eligable at, say 50$ lifetime total or something, and that's the only request they receive, until $500, or some amount/progress that makes sense.

Option 2: Pool Ideas

This method I would describe as "less focus on the individual person's request, and more on a group effort to generate art motions." In this way, Patrons $5 and above will fill out a Google Form as they do now, but simpler. You will fill a few fields separately, "character", "theme", "pose/focus", "act", etc. I'll sort the results by said categories. There will still be a field for the actual request description, but leaving it blank is an option. The description portion will be somewhat optional both for you and me; the priority for choosing or voting will be organized more by category. I somewhat have that going right now, but this will take it a bit further/more organized.

It's possible I wipe the form every few months too, as an option to keep it fresh, although I think every -single- month would be a little tedious, I'm not sure. There's a problem with requests sitting in the form so long that either the person forgets, or they aren't a patron by the time they're picked.

This will also let me pick more niche characters/ideas that wouldn't survive a popular vote and put them up for possibility, at the cost of, they may not be exactly what was requested by a specific person. For example if ARA won, but also a lot of votes for 'oral sex' category, obviously, I wouldn't do that, so a fanservice-y shot or comedic innuendo might suffice. Or if a niche character like Brisby was chosen by me but the person who requested it added 'preggers' in description, that part may be dropped in favour of other categories that have a lot of support, but no specific character attached.

This method has more holes/room for improvment at the moment, so I want to hear your ideas first, if it's worth pursuing, and what can be tweaked or possibly tier-reward-based about it!


----

The options are pretty different, because it seems I have to pick one thing or the other: do we want to keep the individual focus, and wait years for that one's request? or make it focused on the artwork itself somehow, without people taking direct credit for an image's inception?

Ultimately, I just want it to be easier, cleaner, but still fair and fun for both ends. I won't make any final changes yet, I need to hear from ya'll. Understand I cannot make everyone happy, so if it doesn't please you, please know I am just trying to find the best compromised course .

Thank you for your support!

Comments

Satanic Cabal

What about highly specific requests with many constraints and parameters in mind? Would you intend on fulfilling those if you decide on the latter option?

Richard Awesome

Whatever makes sense to you. I'm a bit new to the whole request streaming deal so I have no preferences.

Mellenius

Well, I think the idea of the lifetime amount while it encourages people to stay subscribed there's the question if a bunch of patrons have multiple years (I'm already 2 years and going strong) there is the issue of priorities.

The Friendly Deathclaw

I am confused about what day you say you will be streaming on

JsTheWolf

i like second option ^~^ Also what happened to Predators of Denali?

Satanic Cabal

How about just doing the requests you’re most excited about? After all, personal interest can make or break the piece. If you’re not that excited on doing my requests I’m fine with them not being materialized.

Duster

Tbh I've been participating less and less in the voting process and requests lately because I kinda honestly would be fine supporting you if it means I get to see more of your world be built. You have an interesting array of characters and what looks like a very vast universe they exist in but over the years it feels like we as the audience have only been allowed to scratch the surface. I enjoy the requests that show interactions between your characters the most, cause it fills that desire for me to see or learn more about your world. Is it possible that this patreon might be becoming too focused on demanding requests from you and not letting your stories really shine? I'm probably in a very solid minority when it comes to that tho.

Copper

I would say option 2 or some variation of it. Option 1 poses a problem of "pay to win" where the more you pay in the more you'll likely get which would be frustrating for those who really only have the means to pay the smaller amount. However, the idea of having some kind of secondary pool where you can get a more in depth request once a month with a minimum month/ytd pledge amount with pool with a secondary vote for a once a month/2 months extra picture.

Anonymous

That second option sounds really interesting, and I think it will give you a pretty flexible option for your art, while still letting you have the final say in it. It's definitely unique, and I think you could try it out and see how it fits your style.

Deerio Jim

I dont think that option 1 would really solve anything, since after a few months a lot of people would hit the threshold at the same time, so you'd end up on square one again. it'd just push the problem forward in time.

Satanic Cabal

Have you considered doing seasonal variations of the voting system? For some months of the year you do variants of of option 1, for some others option 2, and for the rest you allow yourself to do whatever you feel like? I don’t think a system where you’re at the mercy of your fan base in terms of workload can be good for your health.

Hairy maclary

Option one seems kind of ridiculous especially the jump from 50 to 500 that’s a 5 dollar patron donating one year straight for their first request and then 6 years straight just doesn’t their second request. I think if people are here for the request streams mainly it would pretty much destroy their motivations to stick around as a patron. The second idea sounds a lot better and more exciting and rewarding for patrons. But in all honesty I still personally prefer the current system the most. If you wanted you could just pick like 16 patrons each month get them to send their requests in then use them as the pool for the month, end of the month clear the pool and pretty much have a new pool every month

Volpethrope
>>32010218

Those are some fair points too. Fluff's shown a ton of interest in developing his characters and actually writing a *story*, but this patreon has been more or less just a rule 34 and fanart portfolio. A lot of it is really good, and I enjoy it, but I agree with you that seeing more of Fluff's world and characters would be preferable to seeing yet another krystal or renamon pinup or porn shot.

Silver Fenn Xara

I would honestly follow more into idea 2 given that the first is rather.....well, it puts too much focus on seniority rather than the ideas themselves.

Stoker Bramwell

Well there's another potential solution: the way Rick Griffin does his request pool. Basically he has a set number of requests he takes per month and he gives priority to people who haven't had one drawn in a while. He specifically asks people who haven't had one in 3+ months to mention how long it's been but he also keeps track in a spreadsheet or something. Once he makes sure he hits all the ones who have gone the longest he just picks and chooses as he pleases and he makes sure everyone knows that this is the process upfront. I like that because it feels fair to the audience and the artist alike

Synariel

I'm more favourable to the pledge total idea personally. But nothing prevents you from alternating between a method and another.

Xianyu

I think a variation of 1 would be nice: I.E once your request is chosen, your name is removed from the pot for X amount of time. six months or whatever. That way you don't have people getting chosen back to back. I REALLY don't like option 2. The 'tyranny of the majority' is a very real thing. Your requests would become homogenized monotonous pandering towards the majority. And part of the greatness of getting your request pop up is -having your request drawn-. Like I wanted Nytro getting the knot. If it then ended up as Nytro just doing his normal dommish stuff again because 'everyone voted for that oh well' I would feel as though my request were utterly wasted.

Kaizer

I'm good with whatever you decide, dude. My only irk is that SFW stuff really isn't my jam, just hope this doesn't mean the lewds get outnumbered. I see a lot of the votes go towards the cutesy stuff more than the porny stuff more often.

Cody

I really like the idea of the 2nd one, since it seems like more people will have a connection to more of the requests. I think it would probably lead to more people being happy more of the time! Thanks for asking us about this Fluff! and I hope you and your Gf have a wonderful vacation!! Be safe!

Wat

Personally I think both ideas sound a bit too complex, just personally sounds like a lot of work you're going to have to do to verify each request before you get to the drawing. It also doesn't sound much like you're reducing your workload a ton with option one. I'd think just raising the bar a bit for requests would be the ideal choice. Whatever you decide I'd be fine with, though.

Newmoon Draws

The cooldown idea sounds like could work, if you can manage to have a way to tag each patron and keep tabs on their time without much effort, then its just sorting the request by the users; thats a lot easier and makes it more fair in terms of time per request and shorten the workload I'd say thats a nice way to solve it and have a more broad selection of options/requests

Lashout

Will option one make a significant dent in the wait-list given the sheer amount of patrons you have?

Drynwyn

No really easy solution with this one Fluff. I'm sure what you come up with will work out well.

Silvador

I'm inclined to go with the “lifetime pledge” option. The way I see it, if A joins and must wait until they've accumulated X amount before they can submit a request, that gives you time to work through the accumulated requests without a significant, constantly increasing buffer of waiting requests. It also helps cut back on some of the “drop outs”. When A reaches their limit and can submit a request, they can wait patiently for their request to be done while building their counter to the next limit, by which time (hopefully) you should have made your way through the already waiting requests. In essence, this method seems like it wouldn't drastically reduce the number of requests, but it would stagnate the number, halt it from rapidly increasing the way it is now. The biggest issue I see with this option is finding a fair amount to set as each limit. Too high and only the highest pledging Patrons will ever get a request. Too low and you'll quickly find yourself swamped with mostly high pledging Patron requests. I would suggest, rather than a static incremental increase, 10, 20, 30, 40... go with more of a curve, 10, 20, 40, 80, 160, etc, etc. Of course, these numbers are just an example. I feel like this option would keep the most people happy and interested, as it retains the individual focus. The second option would drastically reduce the number of requests overall, but does little to circumvent the increasing amount as it relies too heavily on multiple people wanting the same character or similar idea. This starts to fall apart when there is a wide variety of people asking for vastly different things, potentially leaving you right back at square one. At least, that's how I see it. Alternatively, you could combine the two options. Make the first option your primary method, and, when you see several requests that are similar, ask those that requested them if they would be fine with their request being “combined” into a “second option” image. You may even consider offering a minor “reward” as incentive to allow their request to be combined, perhaps $5 or $10 towards their current accumulated amount. This would probably require some additional manual tracking, but it has the potential to increase the number of individuals willing to sacrifice small details on their request so that you can further reduce the number of requests you need to draw while they can get their next request slightly earlier. Depending on how much they're waiting to reach, this couple potentially be a couple of months, to several months. Get the character they wanted but not necessarily -how- they wanted, and get their next request a little earlier, or insist on getting their individual focus and wait the “full term”.

Anonymous

Interesting situation turns out, indeed, continuous accumulation of queries is a problem that really needs to be addressed. I, being your fan, will support any decision you make, but I would also like to insert my opinion about the options you have proposed: The 1st option sounds good, but it seems to me that everything needs to be well thought out: 1) I think that the initial amount for the 1st request should not be large, so that even those who support you for $ 1 a month can send you their first request without waiting for eternity; 2) the Amount until the next request should grow significantly each time, this will increase interest in more expensive support and requests will not endlessly arise from the same person; 3) You shouldn't draw what you don't like, the last word should be yours, but in order not to offend the person submitting this request I think you should contact him and ask him to come up with something else, and his request to postpone the extraordinary until he can figure out what you're happy for him to draw, so don't be offended and you will not have to draw through the hostility that you definitely don't like 4) you can Tie yourself to a permanent drawing only in order of turn, of course, but it seems to me that if there is a patron who offers ideas that both you and other patrons like, then why not give him the opportunity to offer a few more times, forge iron while it is hot as they say, the last point I consider optional, I just suggest not hanging on a chain if there is an opportunity to enjoy drawing really interesting ideas The 2nd option in its original concept does not sound very good, because the majority opinion will displace small and often beautiful ideas, and Yes, again, it is better to draw what you like personally, it makes sense to choose or adjust the queries, but not so as to reduce the original idea to nothing. It is right to listen to the majority, but we should not forget about individual patrons, otherwise their requests will not be destined to become drawings, I would like to write more about it, but time does not allow.... It seems to me that if you like both ideas and the choice is difficult, it makes sense to make a kind of symbiosis, option 3 so to speak). For example, in parallel with the live queue from the 1st option, each patron for example once every 3 months (there can be any period and it may differ depending on the loyalty or the amount of the monthly subscription), you can send a request in the order of a random queue. And it turns out that each stream you will draw 2 works: the 1st-in a first-come, first-served order), and the 2nd in a random order from the 2nd list or just by voting. However, in this case, I do not guarantee that the lists will not be gradually filled in, so here at your own risk). In any case, you should choose how to perform requests and streams, and therefore your personal decision should be pleasant to you, listen to the patrons well and correctly, but the main thing is that you also get pleasure from this whole process). I like it better when you draw SFW, but I also like your NSFW work, if I happen to get in the queue for executing a request one day, then I would certainly prefer SFW). In any case, I really like your style of drawing, so as long as you exist and draw, I will try to support you consistently. Good luck in all your endeavors and wish you a good rest ;). If you read this, thank you for your attention)!

Zhet

I think both options are fair under these terms, tho I would rule more in favour of the first option personally. But, no matter which one you decide to go with, I am sure it will work out just fine~

INCtastic

Personally I think Option 1 sounds better. It is a longer wait, yes, but that way things might be easier to calculatable on how much work awaits perhaps becuase of pledge track record? When they hit that 50 or 500 mark (for example purpose)

Anonymous

Option 1 sounds like it would be time consuming to administer, unless Patreon automatically tracks that info in a way can easily be exported to spreadsheet. Option 2 may be easier. The request should already be being dumped in a excel spreadsheet and then you can you a 'pivot table' to filter through the data.

Silvertaildfox

It's hard to judge how sustainable option 1 is without you disclosing the amount of patrons at each tier, which probably is against TOS. A lifetime total goal is nice, but has room for skipping ahead, so I feel like it should also have a time aspect to it. I mean, seeing how crazy some ych get, I can see them just dropping the 500 outright. So at least a minimum time of *pledge total*/25. $500 sounds a lot, but that might be what you need with how many patrons you have. I'd say put the second request after an additional *commission price*, somewhere 150-250, so 200-300 total, and then after that either keep it at that amount or increase it with another 50 or 100. Additionally, will previous requests be taken into account? As in they start higher up for their next one? Like if they had 2 already, will they need a total of 1000, or whatever the value will be at. I'm much more in favor of the second option. A bit like it is now. One thing I'd like to see changed is the voting. I feel like a lot of voices are unheard through the stream voting. Putting it up ahead of time or do one on patreon itself maybe. And an idea for a theme if you do with cleaning the form every so often, an unpopular vote. Basicly let us vote on sugggestion that did poorly in the popular vote buy you think should get a second chance.

Anonymous

I personally think option 2 sounds like it could be interesting, as it would help reduce backlog with the categories, and while it may not produce the exact idea someone had, it could produce something that they had not thought of that is just as nice. I also feel using categories like that is a good way to track the trends of patrons interests for creating art more people will enjoy, instead of something one specific person requested. Option 1 while I can see how it would reduce backlog also sounds like it could be a little harder to track, and that the backlog may come in bursts and spurts then as people reach the various 'lifetime goals' and the like. It also ultimately reduces patrons input to a one time/limited number, of inputs.

Ahawk95

I’ve been mulling it over a lot, and after hearing other people’s points, I think I’m more in favor of option 1. After putting some more thought into it, I feel as though leaving everything up to the majority would put some more niche and potential great ideas down. I love every part of this patreon. The work you do is amazing no matter what it is fluff, because you’re just that talented. With the right ideas, I feel option one could keep the magic of having something drawn with your talents alive while making it easier on you. And making things easier on you is the most important thing. I don’t feel I can suggest much more that’s better than the ideas presented by some people smarter than I. But I want to push my support toward the option I prefer to support, knowing that whatever comes of this will be better for you in the end. As long as I get to continue to support and enjoy your art, I’m happy. As sappy as that sounds, I truly mean it. So I say option 1.

Magitechnician

yaaay you two enjoy yourselves!

Anonymous
>>32018642

I was also thinking along the lines of going with Option 1. However, I do have a few questions about that option. Would the lifetime threshold for requests continue to rise higher and higher for the life of the pledge? Or would the threshold be reset on a set schedule, like annual or bi-annual? The reason I ask this is because, as you have suggested the exponential increase rather than a static increase, such increases over time would become so high that long term pledges would be essentially displaced by short term and new pledges.

goldblaze

I prefer option one, myself, there's also a few good 'option 3s' in the other comments.

Commodore Cougar

I think Option 2 seems like it offers the most opportunity for everyone to participate in the process.

Diamondstorm

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'm fine with you keeping things as they've been. As of right now you have almost 1500 patrons, and I'm afraid no matter what system you try to use, someone is gonna end up waiting a long time for their request. You literally can't draw for that many people in a short amount of time, no matter how you slice it. I understand this, and I think most of your supporters understand this. I think you should keep giving priority to those who've never had a request before, and after that you can use a lifetime pledge or something similar to determine who gets a request next. Whatever you decide I'll be fine with.